Should Viewers Be Able to Call in Rules Violations

[Clambake]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil McGlenno

Sorry Erik for the earlier post. It was out of line. I get frustrated as you know but I'll try to behave more like my wife would want me to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clambake
One of the beauties of golf is that the rules are pretty clear - there are really no areas of gray between the black and white.    Yes, there is an occasional outcry over the results of the rules such as DJ grounding his club in a bunker at the PGA, but the rules are still very clear, and in that example it was crystal clear that he did indeed violate the rule.    The problem with the using viewers to report infractions is if we try to create a process that is as black and white as the rule book.   For example, what is the time limit?   If a person calls in a year later, should that be used to overturn the player's result at that tournament?    According to your argument, the answer would be yes because to do otherwise would damage the integrity of the game.   Afterall, the player did indeed commit a violation, so they must of course pay the appropriate penalty.      But having a long amount of time pass seems both impractical and overly punitive.     So instead, it seems logical to find a compromise of some shorter time period to create almost a statute of limitations.

I don't want to speak for Erik here but I think you're wrong when you say "according to your argument". Erik likes the Rules, and the Rules say that once a tournament is over, it's over. This was discussed several pages ago. It's unfortunate, and it would keep golf from being "perfect," but striving for perfection while the tournament is still ongoing must be the goal.

So again I don't want to speak for Erik, but I think he'd disagree entirely with what you think he would say in this case.

Rules of Golf, 34-1b:

In stroke play, a penalty must not be rescinded, modified or imposed after the competition has closed. A competition is closed when the result has been officially announced or, in stroke-play qualifying followed by match play, when the player has teed off in his first match.

I sense that Erik is not talking because he thinks that he'll piss people off if he keeps disagreeing with them, but let's all make sure that nobody acts like I behaved before, and actually get pissed off. Again, sorry for that. In the end we all enjoy golf, and without disagreements we wouldn't have much of a forum, and I'm up for a good debate as much as anyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clambake

Where is the line drawn?

Per the rules... at the close of competition. Did you miss those posts?

No, I didn't miss those posts but I think you missed the point of my timeline argument (which maybe I didn't explain well enough):  that in setting a closing point we are by nature making a compromise in the purest Rules integrity as we are essentially waiving the penalty for an infraction discovered after close of competition.   That's a compromise.  I'm not saying it's wrong, just that trying to turn this issue of viewers reporting infractions as a foundation for the sport's integrity is overreaching.     Also to my point, as stated in the rules a player who commits an infraction on Thursday morning could be DQ'ed by a caller on Sunday afternoon, so there are 4 days for viewers to analyze and report, while someone who does the same violation on Sunday afternoon might not be reported.     I don't feel this is within the spirit of retaining the integrity.

[wannabe]

After reading the whole thread,  I vote yes.  I like to think of this as all the golfing world's dedication to preserving the integrity of the sport.  This practice won't increase, either.  Players have always known that this is possible even before t.v. and the internet, it's happened before, and they and their caddies will continue to hone their knowledge, police themselves, or else face strokes or DQ and the accompanying media swirl when they don't call themselves out on a rules violation.

Paparazzi proliferation is a non-issue, because most if not all tourneys prohibit electronic devices brought onto the course during a tourney.  Too risky for a cell phone to go off during a backswing, which would really impact the tournament.

I believe Bobby Jones would have welcomed a rules violation he committed to be brought to his attention, regardless of the source, and if verified, he would gladly have been assessed the proper ruling and associated penalties.  As I think he stated when asked about calling a penalty on himself, paraphrased, "not calling the rule on myself would have been the same to me as robbing a bank".

[BrushCaddy]

Good question Deryck...  Not sure what the statute of limitations is on this.

If I was at a basketball game and saw LeBron foul Kobe and the refs missed it; I don't think they will stop the game and go to the tape to review it.  I don't know why it needs to be different with golf.  Let the players play and the officials officiate.  If there are so many players bending the rules and so many of these rules not getting caught then they should hire more officials to watch.

Having people call in to narc on players seems a bit snotty to me and I'd rather not see it. I like to think and actually, I do think most of the players will call themselves out on something they did wrong.

For the record... I don't believe Camilo was breaking the rule with intent to improve his lie.  He was simply returning his divot to where he took it from and didn't realize what he was doing.  I don't even think the ball would have rolled over it but hey, what do I know... I wasn't there in person, I saw it on TV.

[doublesuited77]

after reading all of the responses,  I think there are several different issues here.

1) Should the PGA solicit input from fans?

2) Should there be a statue of limitations on imposing penalties?

3) Should players be informed of potential violations before they sign their card?

I think issue one goes to the heart of this question.   However, 2 and 3 are about how to operationalize the process, which seems like is what most of the debate is about.

[max power]

Golf doesn't have referees , there is literally nothing I can think of that is similar between the two games, other than a round ball.  Bringing up other professional sports is a red herring.  Most players will call themselves out, but not all , the history of professional golf is filled with players with reputations as cheaters.  No one is being punished-there are no surprise rules, no ex post facto regulations being enforced against certain golfers.  Each player is charged with knowing the same rules.

Originally Posted by BrushCaddy

Good question Deryck...  Not sure what the statute of limitations is on this.

If I was at a basketball game and saw LeBron foul Kobe and the refs missed it; I don't think they will stop the game and go to the tape to review it.  I don't know why it needs to be different with golf.  Let the players play and the officials officiate.  If there are so many players bending the rules and so many of these rules not getting caught then they should hire more officials to watch.

Having people call in to narc on players seems a bit snotty to me and I'd rather not see it. I like to think and actually, I do think most of the players will call themselves out on something they did wrong.

For the record... I don't believe Camilo was breaking the rule with intent to improve his lie.  He was simply returning his divot to where he took it from and didn't realize what he was doing.  I don't even think the ball would have rolled over it but hey, what do I know... I wasn't there in person, I saw it on TV.

[Phil McGleno]

Oh for Pete's sake...

Originally Posted by BrushCaddy

Good question Deryck...  Not sure what the statute of limitations is on this.

That's already been answered. Read.

Originally Posted by BrushCaddy

If I was at a basketball game and saw LeBron foul Kobe and the refs missed it; I don't think they will stop the game and go to the tape to review it.  I don't know why it needs to be different with golf.  Let the players play and the officials officiate.  If there are so many players bending the rules and so many of these rules not getting caught then they should hire more officials to watch.

Also already discussed at length. Read.

Originally Posted by BrushCaddy

Having people call in to narc on players seems a bit snotty to me and I'd rather not see it. I like to think and actually, I do think most of the players will call themselves out on something they did wrong.

And when they don't? And how is holding another person accountable "narcing" on players?

Originally Posted by BrushCaddy

For the record... I don't believe Camilo was breaking the rule with intent to improve his lie.  He was simply returning his divot to where he took it from and didn't realize what he was doing.  I don't even think the ball would have rolled over it but hey, what do I know... I wasn't there in person, I saw it on TV.

No, he wasn't. He wasn't "returning his divot" and intent is irrelevant here. This has also already been discussed.

Originally Posted by doublesuited77

1) Should the PGA solicit input from fans?

2) Should there be a statue of limitations on imposing penalties?

3) Should players be informed of potential violations before they sign their card?

There are answers to each of those:

1. They don't "solicit" input from the fans. But the committee, when made aware of a possible issue, MUST act.
2. There is a statute. It's the end of the tournament.
3. They're already informed if the officials know of a possible violation.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by doublesuited77

after reading all of the responses,  I think there are several different issues here.

1) Should the PGA solicit input from fans?

2) Should there be a statue of limitations on imposing penalties?

3) Should players be informed of potential violations before they sign their card?

I think issue one goes to the heart of this question.   However, 2 and 3 are about how to operationalize the process, which seems like is what most of the debate is about.

1.  They don't solicit input.  They do accept information from any source, whether it be a fellow competitor, spectator in the gallery, or spectator watching on television.

2.  There is... the close of the competition.

3.  Only if the information comes to light before they return the card.  If they have an issue with that then they have an out... learn the rules and they won't have to worry about it..

[Lefty-Golfer]

you guys need a drink, or a girl or a different job or something...7 pages on a simple rule violation, in a tourney that doesn't matter to a golfer who didn't give a damn that he was DQ'ed...wow.

my contention is that if the rule was broken, fine, the penalty is X  but then you have to notify the player at that time...to go back in time 10 minutes or 4 hours is BS...just my opinion.

[shades9323]

When does the "close of competition" usually happen?  Does it happen on Sunday shortly after the tournament is over?  Or is it Monday?

[bobsuruncle]

I'm in the vote "no" camp for one simple reason - there must be a specific rule(s) governing viewer call-ins against players on TV.

Yes, a rule was violated.  Yes, there should have been a penalty.  But that penalty must be properly governed by a rule(s) about viewers calling in.  Further, I believe that any penalty should result only in the addition of penalty strokes and not a DQ for signing a wrong card, because the player has no chance whatsoever of correcting his erroneous card if the review of the call in happens (even if just minutes) after he has left the course.

When the rules of golf were written, golf wasn't a televised event.  So the rules (and I make the assumption here) applies to the player and his group (fellow competitors and caddies), and any "live" audiences.  Notice how no one in the galleries ever spots any such infringements.  It's always someone with the benefit of replays and slow motion.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by shades9323

When does the "close of competition" usually happen?  Does it happen on Sunday shortly after the tournament is over?  Or is it Monday?

Rule 34-1b:

b. Stroke Play

In stroke play, a penalty must not be rescinded, modified or imposed after the competition has closed. A competition is closed when the result has been officially announced or, in stroke-play qualifying followed by match play, when the player has teed off in his first match.

Exceptions:  A penalty of disqualification must be imposed after the competition has closed if a competitor:

(i) was in breach of Rule 1-3 (Agreement to Waive Rules); or

(ii) returned a score card on which he had recorded a handicap that, before the competition closed, he knew was higher than that to which he was entitled, and this affected the number of strokes received (Rule 6-2b); or

(iii) returned a score for any hole lower than actually taken (Rule 6-6d) for any reason other than failure to include a penalty that, before the competition closed, he did not know he had incurred; or

(iv) knew, before the competition closed, that he had been in breach of any other Rule for which the penalty is disqualification.

x

[iacas]

Originally Posted by shades9323

When does the "close of competition" usually happen?  Does it happen on Sunday shortly after the tournament is over?  Or is it Monday?

From the Rules of Golf:

b. Stroke Play

In stroke play, a penalty must not be rescinded, modified or imposed after the competition has closed. A competition is closed when the result has been officially announced or, in stroke-play qualifying followed by match play, when the player has teed off in his first match.

[Phil McGleno]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Golfer

you guys need a drink, or a girl or a different job or something...7 pages on a simple rule violation, in a tourney that doesn't matter to a golfer who didn't give a damn that he was DQ'ed...wow.

my contention is that if the rule was broken, fine, the penalty is X  but then you have to notify the player at that time...to go back in time 10 minutes or 4 hours is BS...just my opinion.

We need a drink, or a girl, and yet here you are, contributing... Hello pot, I'm kettle.

Originally Posted by bobsuruncle

Further, I believe that any penalty should result only in the addition of penalty strokes and not a DQ for signing a wrong card, because the player has no chance whatsoever of correcting his erroneous card if the review of the call in happens (even if just minutes) after he has left the course.

The counter-argument to that is simple: the player has the chance to not screw up to begin with, though, by knowing the rules.

Originally Posted by bobsuruncle

When the rules of golf were written, golf wasn't a televised event.  So the rules (and I make the assumption here) applies to the player and his group (fellow competitors and caddies), and any "live" audiences.  Notice how no one in the galleries ever spots any such infringements.  It's always someone with the benefit of replays and slow motion.

The Rules of Golf are updated every few years. They've known about this "TV thing" for awhile now. Your assumptions aren't right.

I've been in galleries where they helped players. I've seen galleries point out where a ball went into a hazard. I've seen galleries instruct players where to put their ball if a second approach shot collided with a previous shot on the green and moved the stationary ball. I've seen gallery members yell out "STOP!" when a player was about to mark his ball on the fringe. And I've attended tournaments where people have informed officials of a rules infraction, too.

And from what I read the guy who reported this did not need "replays" or "slow motion." He and his friends immediately saw it.

Camilo's not complaining. He's probably embarrassed. Why are so many people on here complaining?

[BrushCaddy]

Originally Posted by Phil McGlenno

Oh for Pete's sake...

Phil, my apologies...  I didn't realize the length of the thread, I was in a rush and responded before reading everything.  Now I have.

I originally voted no but now I'm on the fence. I am all for preserving the integrity of golf but my only concern is relying on an unqualified (not knowing the rules) person, who maybe has taken something out of context or is seeing a funny camera angle, sitting at home watching to preserve that integrity...  I guess I don't see that as "preserving integrity" and that's the only part that is a little weird for me.

It would be very interesting to me if we could find out how many calls, emails, tweets, etc...  are actually received during a tournament.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by BrushCaddy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil McGlenno

Oh for Pete's sake...

Phil, my apologies...  I didn't realize the length of the thread, I was in a rush and responded before reading everything.  Now I have.

I originally voted no but now I'm on the fence. I am all for preserving the integrity of golf but my only concern is relying on an unqualified (not knowing the rules) person, who maybe has taken something out of context or is seeing a funny camera angle, sitting at home watching to preserve that integrity...  I guess I don't see that as "preserving integrity" and that's the only part that is a little weird for me.

It would be very interesting to me if we could find out how many calls, emails, tweets, etc...  are actually received during a tournament.

They don't rely on an "unqualified person".  They field hundreds of calls and emails each year, they investigate any that seem to have legitimate grounds, and only apply a penalty if it is warranted under the rules.  See this article for the details of the Camillo incident

[Zeph]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

They don't rely on an "unqualified person".  They field hundreds of calls and emails each year, they investigate any that seem to have legitimate grounds, and only apply a penalty if it is warranted under the rules.  See this article  for the details of the Camillo incident

Right, and they always use TV footage to check what happened and if it really was a violation. They don't throw around penalties based on a Twitter message or phone call without checking evidence first.

[Lefty-Golfer]

Originally Posted by Phil McGlenno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lefty-Golfer

you guys need a drink, or a girl or a different job or something...7 pages on a simple rule violation, in a tourney that doesn't matter to a golfer who didn't give a damn that he was DQ'ed...wow.

my contention is that if the rule was broken, fine, the penalty is X  but then you have to notify the player at that time...to go back in time 10 minutes or 4 hours is BS...just my opinion.

We need a drink, or a girl, and yet here you are, contributing... Hello pot, I'm kettle.

That is funny and i plead guilty!! i do think golf has some stupid rules and i do think the enforcement policy is silly...no other sport has people calling in to report an infraction after the fact...i would buy an arguement that each group could have a "ref" to observe while the round is taking place.

I just think it is dumb for what amounts to a 2 shot penalty ending up in a DQ when it isn't needed. I also think it is dumb that golfers need total silence to be able to deliver the goods...but that is a different topic all together.

Pot signing off...

[dhanson]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Golfer

That is funny and i plead guilty!! i do think golf has some stupid rules and i do think the enforcement policy is silly...no other sport has people calling in to report an infraction after the fact...i would buy an arguement that each group could have a "ref" to observe while the round is taking place.

i think this has been touched on prior, but:

other sports have secondary mechanisms in place to review calls on their field. football has booth reviews, tennis has ball trackers which help determine whether a ball was in or out, and baseball SHOULD have some sort of review system. people calling in seems like an equivalent for golf.