How bad is the sandbagging at your club?

[mdl]

I guess I've never really bought the whole "game of honor" thing.  I grew up around elitist old money east coast country club kids, and that attitude always just struck me as a way for the old blue bloods to complain about the riff raff taking up their game.  Given that, it just seems like any other individual sport to me, and every other sport sets up the rules around these kinds of things in a way that prevents cheating.  Giving out prize money based on the assumption that a couple hundred people will all be 100% honest all the time when there's money to be won just seems silly to me.  We all know that out of 200 people, at least 10 or 20 of them are going to be truly dishonest to the core.  Why set up the rules around the utopian goal of being the only group of people that size ever not to have a liar in it?

[ghalfaire]

  mdl said:

Originally Posted by mdl

We all know that out of 200 people, at least 10 or 20 of them are going to be truly dishonest to the core.  Why set up the rules around the utopian goal of being the only group of people that size ever not to have a liar in it?

I guess that I would like to think that the dishonest golfer percentages are not 5-10%, but do acknowledge there are those that don't comply with the handicap rules.  One of the problems in catching such individuals is that many tournaments are team events with formats that don't result in individual scores.  But in a club most members know the game of the other members so cheating on handicap isn't very likely.  But the member-guest tournaments can be different and I personally don't play these anymore because it just takes one guest sand bagger to make the experience unpleasant.  To tell the truth however, I suspect that there are more folks with "ego handicaps" than sand baggers, but probably not in tournaments.

[Dloy]

When I walk on for 9 or 18 I'm typically enjoying the day and the game and sometimes trying different shots.This usually results in a mediocre score. When I play with my wife and/or kids I often shoot a terrible score that I don't even like to post, but I do because I have to. When I play in a tournament or with a competitive group, I focus more and try harder. Consequently I often (not always) shoot a better score. Am I a sandbagger?

To answer the OP, by far most of the guys at my club are honest, I think. There's one guy (maybe more) that you don't want to bet with though.

[ND Fan]

I 've been between a +2 and a 2 handicap for the past 20 years.  At our club playing in a handicap event is pointless for me.  It is typical at our club for the net champion to shoot 6-7 shots better than his handicap in almost any event.  Last year we had a buddy tournament.  Two man best ball, 36 holes the winning score was 20 under par.  You had to be 17 under just to get in the money.  Net golf is shameless and a tiresome waste of time at our club.  We have at least 4 guys who handicaps are ridiculous.  One guy was caught last year shooting 83 and turning in 97 that day. Not much you can do about it when a 30 year member decides he's going to cheat, even though all his buddies know he does, so their games are adjusted weekly!!!

[WUTiger]

I played in a city tournament several years back in which the second flight people (18 HDCP and above)  played the Senior tees (about 5,600 yds. long instead of 6,200 whites).

Because of this, I was able to hit a 5W or a 5i off most of the tees and still have a mid to short iron into the green. I shot an opening 85(?). A couple of the also-rans from first flight came up and hassled us early leaders for being sandbaggers. We tried to explain the yardage difference to them, but the self-appointed Morals Squad said we were just making excuses.

(Note: I forgot how to putt on day 2 and ended up out of the prizes.)

[Fourputt]

  WUTiger said:

Originally Posted by WUTiger

I played in a city tournament several years back in which the second flight people (18 HDCP and above)  played the Senior tees (about 5,600 yds. long instead of 6,200 whites).

Because of this, I was able to hit a 5W or a 5i off most of the tees and still have a mid to short iron into the green. I shot an opening 85(?). A couple of the also-rans from first flight came up and hassled us early leaders for being sandbaggers. We tried to explain the yardage difference to them, but the self-appointed Morals Squad said we were just making excuses.

(Note: I forgot how to putt on day 2 and ended up out of the prizes.)

That's what I mean about accusing someone too quickly.  One round, or even 2 rounds don't make a trend, especially when playing under abnormal conditions like WU was.  All that can happen from incidents like this is to create bad feelings all the way around.  I sometimes wonder what ever happened to sportsmanship.

[sean_miller]

  WUTiger said:

Originally Posted by WUTiger

I played in a city tournament several years back in which the second flight people (18 HDCP and above)  played the Senior tees (about 5,600 yds. long instead of 6,200 whites).

Because of this, I was able to hit a 5W or a 5i off most of the tees and still have a mid to short iron into the green. I shot an opening 85(?). A couple of the also-rans from first flight came up and hassled us early leaders for being sandbaggers. We tried to explain the yardage difference to them, but the self-appointed Morals Squad said we were just making excuses.

(Note: I forgot how to putt on day 2 and ended up out of the prizes.)

Sounds like gamesmanship. It works doesn't it?!?

I'm joining a cheaper golf course this summer (fingers crossed) that has a really low course rating and slope considering how I score there. Tight fairways, long rough, small greens with subtle break, and most holes favour a fade swing) If I'm still a 7 index at the end of the season, I'll be 3-5 stokes better per round than I am now.

[tws1098]

  sean_miller said:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Quote:

Originally Posted by WUTiger

I played in a city tournament several years back in which the second flight people (18 HDCP and above)  played the Senior tees (about 5,600 yds. long instead of 6,200 whites).

Because of this, I was able to hit a 5W or a 5i off most of the tees and still have a mid to short iron into the green. I shot an opening 85(?). A couple of the also-rans from first flight came up and hassled us early leaders for being sandbaggers. We tried to explain the yardage difference to them, but the self-appointed Morals Squad said we were just making excuses.

(Note: I forgot how to putt on day 2 and ended up out of the prizes.)

Sounds like gamesmanship. It works doesn't it?!?

I'm joining a cheaper golf course this summer (fingers crossed) that has a really low course rating and slope considering how I score there. Tight fairways, long rough, small greens with subtle break, and most holes favour a fade swing) If I'm still a 7 index at the end of the season, I'll be 3-5 stokes better per round than I am now.

Both of these posts are great.  One showing how poor sportsmanship can be and Sean's shows how course ratings can mess with these things.  I'm not sure there is a real solution for this until something like a futuristic golf ball is created that will keep a players score throughout the round and must be turned in at the end...an out there concept, but i suppose if it could float, give off a beep or led flash, and be near indestructible even the hackers could use it. So until then, it will continue to be an honor system.

We could always televise all the rounds at public courses and allow for call-ins

[NI4NI]

Exists but not rampant for members based on my experience.  The club keeps a good handle on members' GHINs at least for our member events (leagues, championship, tourneys, socials), and most members know each other fairly well so it's kept fairly low.  If you are habitually bagging then you get a reputation for such which is usually a good deterent / attitude adjuster.

[TalkingRock]

The course I used to play at had quite a bit of it.  Two day tournaments would be flighted after the first round and you could almost pick who would be the flight leaders as they were usually the onces on the tournament committee and 90% of the time would shoot even better on the last day and win their flights.  I did get in their pocket at our club championship one time with an 84 and 79.  The 79 was the lowest I had ever shot and my first time below 80.  Of course how many club championships give you mulligans to use like ours did!!!

[cougar978]

It's not bad at mine - the only thing they use to seed players is their previous scores in events held at that course, so the only way you could 'sandbag' is be a first time player who said he sucks and then go out there and throw up a low number.  If you do that, you're a captain next week so it evens itself out.

I have been playing terribly of late (80, 78, 80...) and have went from a captain to a low B or high C player depending on the field we have.  I know when I go out there and put up a 65-66 I'm gonna get a hard time over it from some people, but those who know me know I'm not sandbagging, my game just goes on hiatus from about mid-January to March every year.

[stealthduffer]

Not bad ever since "Bob" had that little accident on the back 9.....

[SVTGolfer]

Its impossible to stop it… That's the most frustrating part. I know it happens everywhere. But I have to admit that the current club I just joined I haven't seen it hardly at all. Im sure it happens, but Im just not seeing it as much.

I did play a tournament last year where it was so obvious it was sickening. I was seeing 19 handicappers shooting 80's, 81's, 83's, IN A TOURNAMENT!!! You've gotta be kidding me!!! At the time I was a 20 handicap and I was shooting over 100 still.

I myself have been dropping like crazy lately. Im playing my best golf ever right now, and ive been getting lessons, plus a new putter is helping tremendously, etc… But I dropped 2 points since last month and now today shot my lowest round ever. Had that been a tournament round Im sure I would have been accused of sandbagging...

[Chas]

Interesting thread.  I know more about croquet handicaps than golf believe it or not (international rules, university and club croquet in England back in the day), and I remember when my handicap really dropped a lot over a period of a few months.  My game was improving leaps and bounds because I was practicing a lot and gaining confidence and patience in building breaks.  At a tourney in the Isle of Wight I made a 3-ball break from about 1-back to win after getting my forward ball pegged out (very bad situation, often fatal) in a club game, resulting in an instance drop in 1 handicap point.  No problem, or accusation of sandbagging.  I think I was more surprised than anyone else at the event.  Anyway the handicap committee guys were there watching and judging my play against well established competition - no way you could sandbag over time if you were playing in tourneys and actually trying to win.

Why don't they do this in competitive golf, or is it just not practical?  Croquet is not exactly a mass sport so this level of supervision is not so difficult to arrange I guess.

Cougar 978: reading your post it looks like this is what they do at your course.  Makes a lot of sense to me.

[Chas]

  tws1098 said:

Originally Posted by tws1098

We could always televise all the rounds at public courses and allow for call-ins

Now that thar is a creative idea.

[Gerald]

At a club I played last year we had this sandbagging problem a lot, not that there were many but just a few and even though they played it the clever way, most tournamenr player exavtly know who are these guys, mostly the guys that mostly play bad in the social game's or even hit a ball in the woods on purpose to ruin their cards and then suddenly when their is something nice to win they have all the "luck" they can get, playing a few birdies and a lot of pars...... Mostly these sandbaggers have mid handicaps like 20 - 24 and they always stay there.

I know a few and whenever I play a social round, we always see them practicing at the range or at the putting green. Last year I was in a Stableford tournament over 9 holes and I was in a group with one of these guys, I played extremely well and scored 21 points (playing of hc. 7) and this guy had all the "luck" of the world and I had to sign his card at 26 stableford points (playing of hc. 22) ....... I went to the comittee and complained ....... this guy was about playing scratch for 9 holes ....... guess what they took him out of the competition and gave him the hc. belonging with his level of play ......... He has now moved to another club ......

If there is a good comittee at a club, sandbagging can be nearly solved.......

[Fourputt]

  Gerald said:

Originally Posted by Gerald

I know a few and whenever I play a social round, we always see them practicing at the range or at the putting green. Last year I was in a Stableford tournament over 9 holes and I was in a group with one of these guys, I played extremely well and scored 21 points (playing of hc. 7) and this guy had all the "luck" of the world and I had to sign his card at 26 stableford points (playing of hc. 22) ....... I went to the comittee and complained ....... this guy was about playing scratch for 9 holes ....... guess what they took him out of the competition and gave him the hc. belonging with his level of play ......... He has now moved to another club ......

If there is a good comittee at a club, sandbagging can be nearly solved.......

This is how it's done.  Have an active handicap committee and you will get a reputation for no tolerance.  The sandbaggers will find greener pastures.

I worry a bit right now as my Men's Cub is scrambling for members, so things might get a bit more lax.   I hope not - I holp that they wouldn't sacrifice the club's integrity for increased membership.... we still have more than 150 guys in the club, which isn't bad for a public course men's club, but we are down 70 or 80 players from  our 250 member limit, plus a waiting list, 10 years ago.