Hitting Up or Down with the Driver in an Inline Pattern

[mvmac]

[cipher]

Awesome video by James! My question on hitting high draws with the driver is what if you miss slightly and only hit up 1 degree instead of 2? How much additional side spin would that create? Or what if you hit it at 0?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by cipher

Awesome video by James! My question on hitting high draws with the driver is what if you miss slightly and only hit up 1 degree instead of 2? How much additional side spin would that create? Or what if you hit it at 0?

The out/in with the driver tends to be about 1:1 to the amount you're hitting up or down. So if you hit "down" two more degrees (3 up to 1 up), you shift the path right an extra two degrees.

[cipher]

Ok makes sense. Caught that in James' video as well. I think I found how that translates to side spin.

[mvmac]

Nice video from Grant and Joe

[RadarNinja]

Keep in mind, when you're playing golf there's absolutely no way to verify what your actual attack angle is unless you have a radar behind you. AoA changes significantly from swing to swing in even the best players. The best way to self-diagnose ball flight issues is to first determine line the ball starts on relative to your target then how it curves relative to your start line. This can give you a general idea as to where your face angle was as well as your face to path relationship.

Attack angle influences the club's path, but it's real effect is simply on launch angle of the golf ball. If you are launching the ball too low there's a good chance your AoA is too steep and may result of too much spin costing carry yardage. However, hitting slightly down on the driver is not necessarily a bad thing. Carry distance is not the end all be all with the driver swing, and many golfers i've seen attempt to create an upward AoA from a downward AoA lose the ability to catch the sweetspot consistently. Having an upward AoA without catching the sweetspot is irrelevant if the ball speed and smash factors go down. The video is great in explaining the geometry in play,  but golfer's should understand making 1-2* degree swing changes is nearly impossible to quantify without the use of TrackMan and somewhat unrealistic in real world golf scenarios. Based on the thousands of swings I've seen TrackMan, many if not most amateurs acheive their best launch conditions with a slightly negative angle of attack. But again, the parameter is very unique to each invidual golfer.

[Stretch]

The river finds many ways to the sea, Mike.

[cipher]

Keep in mind, when you're playing golf there's absolutely no way to verify what your actual attack angle is unless you have a radar behind you. AoA changes significantly from swing to swing in even the best players. The best way to self-diagnose ball flight issues is to first determine line the ball starts on relative to your target then how it curves relative to your start line. This can give you a general idea as to where your face angle was as well as your face to path relationship. Attack angle influences the club's path, but it's real effect is simply on launch angle of the golf ball. If you are launching the ball too low there's a good chance your AoA is too steep and may result of too much spin costing carry yardage. However, hitting slightly down on the driver is not necessarily a bad thing. Carry distance is not the end all be all with the driver swing, and many golfers i've seen attempt to create an upward AoA from a downward AoA lose the ability to catch the sweetspot consistently. Having an upward AoA without catching the sweetspot is irrelevant if the ball speed and smash factors go down. The video is great in explaining the geometry in play,  but golfer's should understand making 1-2* degree swing changes is nearly impossible to quantify without the use of TrackMan and somewhat unrealistic in real world golf scenarios. Based on the thousands of swings I've seen TrackMan, many if not most amateurs acheive their best launch conditions with a slightly negative angle of attack. But again, the parameter is very unique to each invidual golfer.

Personally, I have never found the sweet spot more after switching to hitting up on the ball this year. The distance has been much better as well. How could a slight downward AoA give most players the best launch conditions?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by RadarNinja

AoA changes significantly from swing to swing in even the best players.

I don't find that to be true at all. I can swing pretty much any club and keep the numbers fairly consistent across 10-20 swings relatively easily. And I'm not among "the best players" (PGA Tour level).

Originally Posted by RadarNinja

Attack angle influences the club's path, but it's real effect is simply on launch angle of the golf ball. If you are launching the ball too low there's a good chance your AoA is too steep and may result of too much spin costing carry yardage.

I disagree. The highest AoA we've seen with a 6-iron is about -8 or -9°. That's only going to lower launch angles by about 1-2° over a relatively common -3°. Delivered loft is far more important, and frankly, the vast majority of golfers have too SHALLOW an AoA because they're not achieving Key #3 (or #2).

Originally Posted by RadarNinja

Carry distance is not the end all be all with the driver swing, and many golfers i've seen attempt to create an upward AoA from a downward AoA lose the ability to catch the sweetspot consistently.

To the bold, I agree, but it's close - carry distance is very, very important.

And to the rest, we've seen plenty of players who can hit the ball more solidly - and straighter with less curve - by hitting up with their drivers.

Originally Posted by RadarNinja

Based on the thousands of swings I've seen TrackMan, many if not most amateurs acheive their best launch conditions with a slightly negative angle of attack. But again, the parameter is very unique to each invidual golfer.

We've seen the opposite, but then again, we know how to teach players, too.

[RadarNinja]

Not quite sure what that last comment means, but I've had some tremendous success 'teaching' players as well. In fact, I work with all the top jrs. including several Division 1 collegiate players and see AoA change +-5* range quite easily. My only point here is we're not talking about elite level players , your site and this board is primarily typical amateur players. What's the real translation to all these numbers? Simple. Higher handicap amateurs who are steep, across and swipe at the ball are going to lose valuable carry yards, most likely get some degree of vertical gear, and not get ideal launch conditions. Fix the swing and the 'AoA, path, sometimes but not always face ange tend to fix themselves. Not everyone benefits from hitting up, some do some don't.  I can go back through 6 months of my shot lists and see example after example of scratch level players who acheive higher ballspeeds with steeper attack angles.

You state a -9* AoA is only going to lower the launch by 1-2* but that's assuming center face contact. You deliver far less loft at -9* than at -3* and bring more vertical gear effect into play.  Same argument applies to video Mayo and James made. Theoretically if you maintained a 0* face angle ( face square to the target) and somehow went from -4 down attack to +4 up would you get better launch numbers. All of this is assuming perfectly square center face contact and no gear effect taking place. The model also fails to account for face rotation along the swing arc and through impact. -4* down to +4* up is significantly further in the swing arc and the toe tends to follow the path along the arc. I see more players bring left into play by going after high AoA numbers because they close down the face as the path moves leftward. This is by no means the 'standard' but I see it consistently as ball positition moves forward and spine tilt increases.

There's no cookie cutter, one-size-fits-all approach toward golf. Some golfers benefit from hitting up, some don't. I teach golf from a players' perspective, not a numbers perspective. Numbers mean nothing on the course if they aren't repeatable, and that's what i'm after. You should know that pro.

[RadarNinja]

cipher,

I'm not saying most golfers will benefit, most golfers who already have a steep AoA will benefit if they can shallow it out to some extent. Going from -5* to -2* for example is more realistic than trying to get to +5*. Requires a significant swing overhaul. IMO, more important than angle of attack is ball speed and the only way to get the maximum ball speed for any given swing style is to catch the sweetspot. Obviously others disagree with my statements, but coming from someone who teachs and fits on TrackMan daily and has played at a high level, i'm not convinced that angle of attack is all that critical to getting distance out of the driver unless your numbers are on the extreme. Sweetspot contact and ball speed are more important to me than launch angle.

[cipher]

cipher, I'm not saying most golfers will benefit, most golfers who already have a steep AoA will benefit if they can shallow it out to some extent. Going from -5* to -2* for example is more realistic than trying to get to +5*. Requires a significant swing overhaul. IMO, more important than angle of attack is ball speed and the only way to get the maximum ball speed for any given swing style is to catch the sweetspot. Obviously others disagree with my statements, but coming from someone who teachs and fits on TrackMan daily and has played at a high level, i'm not convinced that angle of attack is all that critical to getting distance out of the driver unless your numbers are on the extreme. Sweetspot contact and ball speed are more important to me than launch angle.

First of all those seem like some pretty extreme numbers. I don't really have the experience but I doubt most amatuer are having to solve -5 AoA launch conditions. Second you should and I am sure do know that you can often raise AoA enough just in setup without changing the swing. Sorry you are not going convince me otherwise. Most of us do not play on rock hard fairways, I will take carry distance any day even in the wind with a positive AoA. Also the evo guys do not teach the cookie cutter approach If you have read the thread you see that Erik recommended the simplest solution of changing ball position slightly and hitting a tight fade. James is just showing how you can do it differently if you want. You are trying to point out a flaw that they are assuming a square clubface. In relation to what? Neither method has a square clubface, one is slightly open and one is slightly closed. And I am sorry but if a player does not have control of where the clubface is at impact most of the time, there are other issues than AoA. They should be taught how to control the face in relation to the path and not just to hit down on the ball because they start over rotating the hands when coming up.

[RadarNinja]

You are correct, you have no experience with TrackMan or understanding the D-Plane model. I see those numbers on a daily basis, the extremes coming from typical amateur handicaps. I'm not pointing out any 'flaws', I actually stated the information is good from a mathmatical standpoint. If you've seen any of Joe's videos, as well as the recent post, you'd know that the explaination of how AoA affects club path assumes a face angle square to the target. One scenario, -4* AoA at a given 45* swingplane with a resultant path of +4* and the other +4* AoA with a resultant path of -4*. I doubt you are conceptualizing this clearly, but essentially both swing scenarios deliver the clubface square to the target from two different locations on the arc of the golf swing. The first swing is well before the low point or horizontal swing plane and the second swing is well after. When you make contact with the ball that far forward it is quite easy to have closed the face down to some extent. There's a whole different argument about how much the face rotation through impact affects the balls spin axis, but I highly doubt you could conceptualize what i'm saying in a golf forum.

For some golfers hitting up on the ball doesn't cause impact location problems, for others it's a nightmare. I work with a high school sophmore who already signed with a PAC 10 D1 program and he is AoA is down on his driver. In his case, he gets better compression and suitable spin loft swinging this way. Yes, he could hit it further if he hit up more, but he doesn't control his face to path relationship as well or hit the ball as solidly. There is no doubt that a positive AoA will increase carry yardage for anybody assuming a solid hit, but to make the blanket assumption that all you have to do is move the ball up in your stance to acheive this demonstrates your lack of understanding. I'm just curious, how do you even know what your AoA is? In earlier posts you make reference to changing your AoA by a degree and what affect does that have? Unless you've got a TrackMan or Flightscope behind you at all times, you'd have absolutely zero idea.

[mchepp]

Obviously others disagree with my statements, but coming from someone who teachs and fits on TrackMan daily and has played at a high level, i'm not convinced that angle of attack is all that critical to getting distance out of the driver unless your numbers are on the extreme. Sweetspot contact and ball speed are more important to me than launch angle.

RadarNinja, Doesn't swing speed play a role in determining whether to suggest to a player to hit up or down? For me, if a golfer has a swing speed of 110mph or higher than down may be the best way to go because there is now a condition where distance and control are at a delicate balance. If a golfer is at 105 or less then up is probably be the best way to proceed with that golfer. Personally when I got on Trackman it was a epiphany for me to see how down I was hitting the ball. Through doing exactly what James suggests I went from -4 to +4 and have easily picked up 15-30 yards. I don't notice that I get any better or worse sweetspot contact now than before. I think us average golfers can only benefit from learning to hit up.

[Stretch]

One other reason high-swing-speed players may choose to hit down is that they don't want to have too little spin loft. Remember that the lower the spin loft the more any given face/path differential will tilt the spin axis, and the more chance the player will have of over curving it. If you hit it really hard with an extreme positive angle of attack of +5 or so, you're going to be bending it Bubba style.

[RadarNinja]

Yes and no. Like i've said, hitting up with all variables the same, will yield greater carry distance. I teach players to try to strike ball as close to level as possible. I've just personally seen many golfers ruin their swings by simply moving the ball forward, swinging out to the right and pulling up on the handle. I never said anybody was wrong, simply that from my experiences you can't simply isolate one variable, that being AoA, and keep all others constant. My experience has been alot of people talk TrackMan numbers like golf is played in a vacuum, but really don't understand the variables that come into play. Heck, I struggle to get anything greater than +1 usually in the -2/+1/2* range and I don't consider myself a fast swinger or distance challenged.

[tomvk77]

with driver you want to hit up on it, no matter what swing speed.

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by tomvk77

with driver you want to hit up on it, no matter what swing speed.

I don't think dogmatic statements like this are particularly useful. While I generally agree with you, I can also easily think of situations where players will benefit from being less up (or, if you prefer, more down). One that springs to mind is the older chap who's unconsciously doing all he can to send his club path as far left as possible -- aims out there, OTT, knees stay bent, all his weight's in the heels -- and then as a bonus he tees the ball three or four inches in front of his left toe. He's hitting up plenty , as evinced by how often he drop-kicks it off the tee, but aside from the big slice his ball just won't go very far at all and he wants to know why? Well, it's not because he isn't hitting up on it! It's because he's so far across it that -- despite the positive angle of attack -- his 3D spin loft is still way too high for any kind of solid strike. Job one for this guy is to get his path more to the right and that's absolutely going to involve (among other things) creating a less-positive angle of attack.