Breed's Ball Shaping Lesson

[canadianpro]

It's not that they are incompetent or stupid....they are simply wrong.

[saevel25]

Well, the problem is, your aim your club at the target and a tree is in the way. I wonder how many people will raise there hands on that they hit a tree and don't know why.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by canadianpro

It's not that they are incompetent or stupid....they are simply wrong.

They are not wrong because they are not trying to explain ball flight laws.

These laws can be discussed in isolation or you can try to teach someone how to move the ball.

A person who has studied them and sees the big picture, as well as knowing what their swing path actually is, will be fine knowing the NBFL, but the average weekend golfer will do just fine doing it the way that everybody used to learn it.

I can hook or  slice a ball 40 metres around a tree by following the advice I was given about doing it many years ago. The same advice that most pros were given and the advice they continue to give. Noone has ever said - "Hey _ it doesn't work!"

Maybe it's technically wrong, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Knowing how to shape a ball is more important than knowing something technical that you can't apply.

They are explaining how to move the ball left or right.

Every player from hacker to multiple major winner was taught to do it this way, because it works.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Shorty

They are not wrong because they are not trying to explain ball flight laws.

I think this being my second or third post in here will imply that I care about this more than I do, but I'll risk it anyway.

For all intents and purposes, yes, they're wrong. Nick Faldo's advice, of which I took two screenshots, is "wrong." It may have been what he thought he was doing, but he was wrong because it wasn't what he was actually doing.

Even if you don't want to call them "wrong" on a technicality, there's no way in heck you can call what they're saying "right" or "correct" by any stretch of the imagination.

Again, look, for me it boils down to one thing: if the correct information is equally as easy to share and understand, and will save the golfer the hassle of "figuring it out" or "experimenting," then doing anything but giving the correct information is, if not "wrong," at least not "the best thing."

Originally Posted by Shorty

but the average weekend golfer will do just fine doing it the way that everybody used to learn it.

I can hook or  slice a ball 40 metres around a tree by following the advice I was given about doing it many years ago.

Thing is, you're not following that advice. Your body's learned that for the ball to start to the left and to miss the tree, the clubface had better not be pointing at the tree when you hit the ball.

Originally Posted by Shorty

The same advice that most pros were given and the advice they continue to give. Noone has ever said - "Hey _ it doesn't work!"

Funny. I thought that's what the people who started these kinds of threads were saying.

Originally Posted by Shorty

Knowing how to shape a ball is more important than knowing something technical that you can't apply.

I don't understand that. Of course you can apply it. Better than you can apply what Breed's telling you.

Now, I think I'm done, because again I've fought this battle enough and I'm tired. :-)

[johnthejoiner]

5.13 into the video tiger talks about hitting a draw and its the same information that Breed hands out

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

5.13 into the video tiger talks about hitting a draw and its the same information that Breed hands out

A recent Golf World issue had a working the ball cover story featuring Martin Kaymer - same thing - the initial direction is dictated by the path.

These guys have been playing at a high level for a long time, and I get what they're saying. It's a feeling. I used to do it when I was young. Hit a high draw by throwing the ball out to the right (path) and bring it back in (slightly closed face). That's what if felt like and it worked. Is it backwards? Probably, but I was lucky enough to have good players show me how to do it in person, not worrying about terminology as much as the physical action and just doing it. For a new golfer who struggles to make any sort of contact, what it "feels like" is irrelevant. They can't do it either way. By the time they can do it, they might end up doing it wrong because they don't have a skilled mentor who can bend the ball both ways and can demonstrate it. They have The Golf Channel.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

5.13 into the video tiger talks about hitting a draw and its the same information that Breed hands out

And I've been told by people who know that Tiger's been given the proper information - and proof thereof - recently. Imagine if he spent the earlier tournaments this year in which he was fighting a hook by trying to swing MORE to the right to get the ball to start to the right more!

Originally Posted by sean_miller

For a new golfer who struggles to make any sort of contact, what it "feels like" is irrelevant. They can't do it either way. By the time they can do it, they might end up doing it wrong because they don't have a skilled mentor who can bend the ball both ways and can demonstrate it. They have The Golf Channel.

That's my only real point, or my biggest one at least: give someone the correct information and they have a leg up on things. Give them the wrong information and it's a step in the wrong direction. They might overcome it, they might win majors, but it's still bad information.

[johnthejoiner]

[shortstop20]

Originally Posted by iacas

And I've been told by people who know that Tiger's been given the proper information - and proof thereof - recently. Imagine if he spent the earlier tournaments this year in which he was fighting a hook by trying to swing MORE to the right to get the ball to start to the right more!

That's my main beef with the old laws. They are very, very bad for a player fighing a hook or slice.

[iacas]

john, what's your point? Players get things wrong - that's no surprise.

[JetFan1983]

This is just my opinion, but in the absence of talent, the only thing that can save a high handicapper from a lifetime of shitty golf is good instruction. Most on the planet are this population of lifetimeish high handicappers, or perhaps marginally talented mid-cappers with a lot of reps under their belt. But just because some idea or concept worked well for a very talented player, it doesn't mean it will work well for the masses. Personally, I think that it has a very real chance of making the masses worse. I've noticed that a lot of things are going to work well for a supremely talented golfer (from low single digit cappers all the way to +4 and beyond). Tiger has made both sides of the coin work at a PGA Tour level ability. But many of us really struggle with anything that isn't well worded and very specific. I for one commend those who are constantly blowing the whistle on instructors who spread information I believe to be poorly stated or outright wrong. Sure, for many regulars at the Sand Trap, this must be annoying. But at the same time, we do have a lot of new members around here, and they could certainly benefit from these types of discussions, even if we seem to have them once every 3-4 weeks or so.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

This is just my opinion, but in the absence of talent, the only thing that can save a high handicapper from a lifetime of shitty golf is good instruction. Most on the planet are this population of lifetimeish high handicappers, or perhaps marginally talented mid-cappers with a lot of reps under their belt. But just because some idea or concept worked well for a very talented player, it doesn't mean it will work well for the masses. Personally, I think that it has a very real chance of making the masses worse. I've noticed that a lot of things are going to work well for a supremely talented golfer (from low single digit cappers all the way to +4 and beyond). Tiger has made both sides of the coin work at a PGA Tour level ability. But many of us really struggle with anything that isn't well worded and very specific. I for one commend those who are constantly blowing the whistle on instructors who spread information I believe to be poorly stated or outright wrong. Sure, for many regulars at the Sand Trap, this must be annoying. But at the same time, we do have a lot of new members around here, and they could certainly benefit from these types of discussions, even if we seem to have them once every 3-4 weeks or so.

I see your point, and I even chimed in earlier with a similar POV. I agree that hackers and new golfers need the most accurate description because they're going to get it wrong either way, but the proper method at least keeps the ball on the course instead of hitting the freeway. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but it's interesting to me that new ball flight laws or not, the same guys who could hit the ball where they wanted the old way, still can and most of the guys who couldn't before still can't.

Actually I'm probably not going to refer to them as the "new ball flight laws" again. Whether an old instructor claimed the major factor in spin was path or face angle, and the intial dirtectio of the ball was path or face angle, they were still probably describing spin and ball flight correctly. What we're talking about are which factors in the impact and/or deflection cause which characteristic in the intial direction and the spin. I'm thinking of calling them "impact" laws since the ball flight portion of the instruction has never changed since at the very least the early 70s. I guess that sums up why I waffle on this topic.

[The Recreational Golfer]

I saw Annika Sorenstam on TV give a lesson to a group of country club ladies about how to curve the ball. To fade, she said you have to set up left and open your clubface, and swing to where you are aimed. Someone asked her how much do you aim left and open your clubface, and she answered that no one can tell you how much, you just have to experiment with different combinations to find out what works for you.

That advice freed me from the "clubface to the target" mantra that made my fade always go way right of where I wanted (including into trees I was trying to hit around). I thought I was making bad swings. Turns out, bad setups.

[MasterP]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

This is just my opinion, but in the absence of talent, the only thing that can save a high handicapper from a lifetime of shitty golf is good instruction. Most on the planet are this population of lifetimeish high handicappers, or perhaps marginally talented mid-cappers with a lot of reps under their belt. But just because some idea or concept worked well for a very talented player, it doesn't mean it will work well for the masses. Personally, I think that it has a very real chance of making the masses worse. I've noticed that a lot of things are going to work well for a supremely talented golfer (from low single digit cappers all the way to +4 and beyond). Tiger has made both sides of the coin work at a PGA Tour level ability. But many of us really struggle with anything that isn't well worded and very specific. I for one commend those who are constantly blowing the whistle on instructors who spread information I believe to be poorly stated or outright wrong. Sure, for many regulars at the Sand Trap, this must be annoying. But at the same time, we do have a lot of new members around here, and they could certainly benefit from these types of discussions, even if we seem to have them once every 3-4 weeks or so.

As one of the longtime high handicappers the old ball flight laws, and how they were (are) taught really held me back from improving.  For me it wasn't so much that I needed to know how to hit a fade effectively or how to draw around a tree it was more "How the hell do I fix this horrible shot I always hit?"

Slicers really suffer.  All you hear when you slice is that you need to square the clubface, roll the hands over, release those hands!  Which is good advice for guys who push slice, but horrible for guys like me that pull slice the ball.  When I did release the club I'd end up with at best a straight pull, which usually put me into trouble since I was set up to compensate for a slice.  And at worst I ended up with a duck hook, and confused on why exactly that happened.

When I heard of the new ball flight laws everything sort of clicked for me.  I finally had a tool to correctly diagnose errant shots.  And while my swing didn't magically get any better, at least I knew what I needed to concentrate on to fix things.  That's the crux of the problem with instructors and players teaching the ball flight laws the way they do.  Good players generally have a feel for how to draw a ball, or fade it, or how to fix a bad shot next time around.  Bad players don't.  They hit bad shot after bad shot, and then follow a tip from one of these highly regarded instructors on how to fix a flaw and get nothing out of it.  Or end up with a bigger problem than when they started.

I think if more people just knew the basic physics involved, ball starts on clubface direction and curves away from path, they'd at least be able to figure out what their swing flaw actually is.  They might not be able to correct it on their own, but at least they'd know what part of the swing (path or clubface) they needed to work on.

[saevel25]

Quote:

Slicers really suffer.  All you hear when you slice is that you need to square the clubface, roll the hands over, release those hands!  Which is good advice for guys who push slice, but horrible for guys like me that pull slice the ball.  When I did release the club I'd end up with at best a straight pull, which usually put me into trouble since I was set up to compensate for a slice.  And at worst I ended up with a duck hook, and confused on why exactly that happened.

Honestly, it use to be square the club, and a slice is caused by an open face. But the past 5 years or so, i hear more and more that a slice is because your comming over the top, or the clubhead is going out to in. So there getting better.

But yes, there is no excuse for giving out bad information, especially if you know what is true. It took me a few days here of having my logic slapped around by scientific fact to get whats right. Being an engineer, you throw science at me, i will definetly be more likely to accept it.

[colin007]

i remember one day, being in the trees to the right, trying to cut  the ball around this one tree right in front of me, and following the davice of "aim the face where you want it to end up and swing left of that", and hitting that damn tree 3 times in a row.

[johnthejoiner]

Originally Posted by iacas

john, what's your point? Players get things wrong - that's no surprise.

My point is, it works, it always has and it always will. What you should be saying is that it might not work for someone who is experimenting with stack and tilt and is more suited to someone with more of a traditional swing

[14ledo81]

John, are you saying that geometrical facts change based on the method of swing oneempoys?