Confusing Ball Flight Information - followup

[Harmonious 169]

I continue to be amused by the vehement responses that accompany ANY discussion of this.  Between S&T;'ers here and D-Planers on other sites, it's like a mantra.  And for what?  Just to be "revolutionary"?  I guess, in order to be revolutionary, you need to have something to revolt against.

The funny thing is, we would all be better off just trying to square the face to the target and swinging to the target.  Then any ball flight laws, new or old or futuristic, will not matter.

Carry on, I'm enjoying the show. Since it's taking on biblical proportions now, I guess I should say I'm enjoying the EPIC!

[Mark5 2]

>

I'll add some Hollywoodism.

You can't see it....you can't feel it....yet it's all around you....welcome to the Matrix.  What is there about this place that makes you think any ball flight laws are real.

Opps!  Gotta go, the blue pill (or was it the green?)  is wearing off.

[iacas 7,965]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

In the PGA Manual of Golf it states that with greater club head speed the ball's starting path will move somewhat closer to the swing path line but will always fall in between the face and path direction favoring the face angle.

Turns out that's wrong. The ball doesn't start closer to the path at higher swing speeds. And the original manual said the ball started closer to the face, which is not what was taught by the majority of people for decades.

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Maybe try taking off the S&T; tinted glasses and read the actual words.

Ball flight has nothing to do with S&T.; Ball flight applies to any and all golf swings. Even yours. And johnthejoiner's. And Harmonious'.

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king

And in your world, physics apparently ceases to exist. So...?

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I continue to be amused by the vehement responses that accompany ANY discussion of this.  Between S&T;'ers here and D-Planers on other sites, it's like a mantra.  And for what?  Just to be "revolutionary"?  I guess, in order to be revolutionary, you need to have something to revolt against.

I've simply tried to help correct decades of bad information. Information that applies to every golf swing.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

The funny thing is, we would all be better off just trying to square the face to the target and swinging to the target. Then any ball flight laws, new or old or futuristic, will not matter.

Then we get to have a discussion about whether playing a straight ball is a legitimate and/or optimal choice of ball flight. ;-)

[sean_miller 377]

Originally Posted by iacas

Ball flight has nothing to do with S&T.; Ball flight applies to any and all golf swings. Even yours. And johnthejoiner's. And Harmonious'.

As is yours, and they're all also consistent with the excerpt JTJ posted. Even though it's true, people want so badly to think they've stumbled onto something that will change their lives. Forever change their golf games into something beyond their previous abilities that, the get, well, "frothing at the mouth like lunatics" comes to mind.

[Zeph 418]

As is yours, and they're all also consistent with the excerpt JTJ posted. Even though it's true, people want so badly to think they've stumbled onto something that will change their lives. Forever change their golf games into something beyond their previous abilities that, the get, well, "frothing at the mouth like lunatics" comes to mind.

JTJ wrote: [quote name="johnthejoiner" url="/forum/thread/45342/confusing-ball-flight-information-followup/36#post_595035"]

The original ball flight laws that have won hundreds of majors and thousands of tournaments world wide.  In the PGA Manual of Golf it states that with greater club head speed the ball's starting path will move somewhat closer to the swing path line but will always fall in between the face and path direction favoring the face angle.

[/quote] Actually, the data doesn't show that higher swing speed will launch the ball closer to the swing path angle. It is pretty consistent at different speeds. If anything, the chart might show that the ball starts closer to the club face angle at higher speeds. [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/image/id/131057/width/1000/height/800][IMG]http://thesandtrap.com/image/id/131057/width/1000/height/500[/IMG][/URL] I found this quote on GolfWRX, is it accurate, or does the PGA Teaching Manual say more about the subject? From the PGA Teaching Manual, page 34: [quote]It is sometimes incorrectly stated that the ball starts on the swing path line. This is only true when the face is at right angles to that line. So remember, the face has a greater influence than the path, but the higher the clubhead velocity, the greater is that particular vector force moving the ball’s starting direction closer to the swing path line.”[/quote] The first part is right, FA is the greater influence, but I'm not so sure about the last one. This may be from a new manual, I don't know which or if an older one said something differently. What I do know is that many instructors and players have said to aim the clubface where you want the ball to stop, and swing to the line where you want the ball to start. And that is just really bad advice. If that is exactly what the PGA Manual has said, I don't know. But the main point in this ball flight laws discussion is that a lot of the tips on shaping the ball is explained wrong. Do a quick search on Google and Youtube and see what you come up with. I could do it myself, but I know that many of them will get it wrong. If you shape the ball in the air, and the clubface was aimed at the target at impact, you will not find the target.

[bullseye 0]

Ok in all seriousness I'm getting a little worried about the ball flight laws. I really don't want to have to think about one more thing that can go wrong. So here's what I do. I pick a blade of grass about two feet in front on my ball, that's in line with the target, and take extreme care to square the face to that spot, I then square my hips and shoulders to that line. Then I swing away hopefully in-square-in along my plane. Please tell me if i need to do something different, the Tom Watson thing really confused me.

[Zeph 418]

Ok in all seriousness I'm getting a little worried about the ball flight laws. I really don't want to have to think about one more thing that can go wrong. So here's what I do. I pick a blade of grass about two feet in front on my ball, that's in line with the target, and take extreme care to square the face to that spot, I then square my hips and shoulders to that line. Then I swing away hopefully in-square-in along my plane. Please tell me if i need to do something different, the Tom Watson thing really confused me.

Knowing the laws doesn't mean you have to think about them all the time. It's pretty easy to set up properly if you know your normal swingpath angle. The way Tom Watson describe it require you to swing in-out or out-in. If your swingpath is square at impact with his setup, you won't get the ball to curve. 1: Know your swingpath angle. 2: Set up the clubface in the angle where you want to start the club. 3: Set up your body so that the swingpath will be outside. Here is where #1 comes into play. If you know you swing in-out, you can align square to the clubface alignment and draw the ball to the target. The alternative, aiming the clubface at the target is the same procedure, but you'll have to rely on compensations to reach the target.

[Harmonious 169]

Originally Posted by bullseye

Ok in all seriousness I'm getting a little worried about the ball flight laws. I really don't want to have to think about one more thing that can go wrong. So here's what I do. I pick a blade of grass about two feet in front on my ball, that's in line with the target, and take extreme care to square the face to that spot, I then square my hips and shoulders to that line. Then I swing away hopefully in-square-in along my plane. Please tell me if i need to do something different, the Tom Watson thing really confused me.

I think you've got it right.  Unless you are seriously trying to work the ball one way of the other, your approach is just fine.  Disregard the rest.

[sean_miller 377]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeph

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

As is yours, and they're all also consistent with the excerpt JTJ posted. Even though it's true, people want so badly to think they've stumbled onto something that will change their lives. Forever change their golf games into something beyond their previous abilities that, the get, well, "frothing at the mouth like lunatics" comes to mind.

JTJ wrote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

The original ball flight laws that have won hundreds of majors and thousands of tournaments world wide.  In the PGA Manual of Golf it states that with greater club head speed the ball's starting path will move somewhat closer to the swing path line but will always fall in between the face and path direction favoring the face angle.

Actually, the data doesn't show that higher swing speed will launch the ball closer to the swing path angle. It is pretty consistent at different speeds. If anything, the chart might show that the ball starts closer to the club face angle at higher speeds.



I found this quote on GolfWRX, is it accurate, or does the PGA Teaching Manual say more about the subject?
From the PGA Teaching Manual, page 34:

Quote:

It is sometimes incorrectly stated that the ball starts on the swing path line. This is only true when the face is at right angles to that line. So remember, the face has a greater influence than the path, but the higher the clubhead velocity, the greater is that particular vector force moving the ball’s starting direction closer to the swing path line.”

The first part is right, FA is the greater influence, but I'm not so sure about the last one.

This may be from a new manual, I don't know which or if an older one said something differently.

What I do know is that many instructors and players have said to aim the clubface where you want the ball to stop, and swing to the line where you want the ball to start. And that is just really bad advice. If that is exactly what the PGA Manual has said, I don't know. But the main point in this ball flight laws discussion is that a lot of the tips on shaping the ball is explained wrong. Do a quick search on Google and Youtube and see what you come up with. I could do it myself, but I know that many of them will get it wrong. If you shape the ball in the air, and the clubface was aimed at the target at impact, you will not find the target.

Unless the person making the target uses the terms target and path interchangably. But, yes I agree. If the people I referred to earlier were getting upset about the clubhead speed portion of the alleged (I haven't seen it in that context) PGA Manual exerpt, then I'll give them that. Not saying they're right or wrong, based on your inconclusive chart, but maybe they took that portion very personally. I should bail before I start frothiing too.

[iacas 7,965]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

As is yours, and they're all also consistent with the excerpt JTJ posted. Even though it's true, people want so badly to think they've stumbled onto something that will change their lives. Forever change their golf games into something beyond their previous abilities that, the get, well, "frothing at the mouth like lunatics" comes to mind.

While I agree that sometimes they get overblown in discussion (particularly here ...), many do feel that they are "something that will change their (golf) lives." If you've been trying to fix the pull-hooks because you think you "come over the top of them" then the correct rules will be mindblowing. And though they may not be "mind blowing" at every level, they'll still change the way you diagnose your swing flaws based on your ball flight which, let's face it, is how 99% of players diagnose things - even those with cameras do it that way when playing golf and not on the range.

[johnthejoiner 14]

If we go back to Breeds video as an example on how to hit a draw and add some meat and potatoes to it "if you S&T; don't try this". If i walk onto a par 3 and lets say its 170 yards long i'll take my 6 iron, i then place the club behind the ball square to the flag i then set up my feet hips and shoulders two yards to the right of the flag, if i then swing along the line of my feet can you work out what path my ball starts on?

In the PGA Manual of Golf it states that  the ball's starting path will always fall in between the face and path direction favoring the face angle, so in other words it will start slightly to the right of the flag.
The new ball flight laws backed up by the trackman data says that the ball's starting path will favor the face angle compaired to swing path by around 75%, so in other words it will start slightly to the right of the flag

[saevel25 1,620]

lets say its square to the flag, and your swing path is now two degrees closed. The ball will start 0.5 degrees off center, over a 170 yard shot that means if it were to go straight 0.5 degrees it would land 1.7 yards right of the target. But now you have the face closed to your swing path by 2 degrees, which would cause a draw spin. Meaning that the ball doesn't just go out 1.7 yards right and turn 90 degrees left, it will start to curve as soon as the ball lowers in velocity enough to cause spin, your probably looking at hitting the ball left of the flag by quiet a bit. Also, thats assuming you can deliver..

Yes you are right, but people need to know that they should consider there clubface more than there swing path, at a weight of 4 to 1

[Harmonious 169]

Originally Posted by saevel25

lets say its square to the flag, and your swing path is now two degrees closed. The ball will start 0.5 degrees off center, over a 170 yard shot that means if it were to go straight 0.5 degrees it would land 1.7 yards right of the target. But now you have the face closed to your swing path by 2 degrees, which would cause a draw spin. Meaning that the ball doesn't just go out 1.7 yards right and turn 90 degrees left, it will start to curve as soon as the ball lowers in velocity enough to cause spin, your probably looking at hitting the ball left of the flag by quiet a bit. Also, thats assuming you can deliver..

Yes you are right, but people need to know that they should consider there clubface more than there swing path, at a weight of 4 to 1

Actually, 1.48 yards to the right if I remember my trigonometry (sine 0.5 = .00087265 x 170 yds = 1.48).  But the reason for my post is to ask whether there is firm Trackman data that would quantify your statement about the ball going left of the flag by "quite a bit".  Is that 2 yards, 5 yards, 10 yards?  Seems there should be all sorts of testing that would show how much a 2* closed clubface, with a certain iron swung with a certain velocity, and using a certain type of ball, would curve.  Zeph - You got any graphs of that?

And your comment about "assuming you can deliver" works both ways.  It could also mean that the swing path was actually a little farther to the right or the clubface was a little less than 2* closed, which could produce a shot that goes exactly to the target instead of left of it.

[saevel25 1,620]

Well, that depends on the ball, the clubface, the mph of the swing, and wind.. But i would say it would still go left quite a bit.

[Zeph 418]

Seems there should be all sorts of testing that would show how much a 2* closed clubface, with a certain iron swung with a certain velocity, and using a certain type of ball, would curve.  Zeph - You got any graphs of that?

Afraid not, but it is one piece of the ball flight laws puzzle I would've like to solve. Generally, we say that you aim double the distance you aim the clubface. Swing path 4º right, clubface 2º right. But I'd still love to see Trackman data on the subject. There are of course factors like humidity, wind, temperature, ball softness etc., which influence it. A chart like the FA/CP one with the amount of side movement instead of % of initial launch angle, depending on the difference between FA and CP, would have been interesting to see.

[iacas 7,965]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Actually, 1.48 yards to the right if I remember my trigonometry (sine 0.5 = .00087265 x 170 yds = 1.48).  But the reason for my post is to ask whether there is firm Trackman data that would quantify your statement about the ball going left of the flag by "quite a bit".  Is that 2 yards, 5 yards, 10 yards?  Seems there should be all sorts of testing that would show how much a 2* closed clubface, with a certain iron swung with a certain velocity, and using a certain type of ball, would curve.  Zeph - You got any graphs of that?

And your comment about "assuming you can deliver" works both ways.  It could also mean that the swing path was actually a little farther to the right or the clubface was a little less than 2* closed, which could produce a shot that goes exactly to the target instead of left of it.

You can find those numbers, or numbers that give you similar data, of course. Or go work with a Trackman and get them. The point being while the shot may be "acceptable" it's left of the target. Here's an example: face at target, swinging out 0.2 degrees. Oooh, that's gonna gonna overdraw, correct? Yeah, but if we keep making the numbers small then it's going to be fine.

H, I'm really not sure why you continue to post on this. We know it grates on you, but it's physics, and if knowing the general rules helps people, what are you trying to prove? Does it matter precisely how far left that ball will go, or is the knowledge that it will definitely over-draw and wind up left of the target what matters? If this player wants to hit a better shot, someone who believed the "old" laws would tell him "swing more to the right" and someone who understands the correct data would definitely tell him not to do that. That's what it boils down to, and that's why understanding how the ball flies is important.

If you're overdrawing the ball you can change one of two things: point the face more right or make the path not go so far right. If you're already starting the ball well right, you don't do the former, and if the ball's barely curving you don't do the latter (assuming you want to play a draw of course).

[Harmonious 169]

Originally Posted by iacas

You can find those numbers, or numbers that give you similar data, of course. Or go work with a Trackman and get them. The point being while the shot may be "acceptable" it's left of the target. Here's an example: face at target, swinging out 0.2 degrees. Oooh, that's gonna gonna overdraw, correct? Yeah, but if we keep making the numbers small then it's going to be fine.

H, I'm really not sure why you continue to post on this. We know it grates on you, but it's physics, and if knowing the general rules helps people, what are you trying to prove? Does it matter precisely how far left that ball will go, or is the knowledge that it will definitely over-draw and wind up left of the target what matters? If this player wants to hit a better shot, someone who believed the "old" laws would tell him "swing more to the right" and someone who understands the correct data would definitely tell him not to do that. That's what it boils down to, and that's why understanding how the ball flies is important.

If you're overdrawing the ball you can change one of two things: point the face more right or make the path not go so far right. If you're already starting the ball well right, you don't do the former, and if the ball's barely curving you don't do the latter (assuming you want to play a draw of course).

I think you're misinterpreting my questions as somehow trying to invalidate your premise of ball flight.  That's not my intent.  I think many people would find it interesting and informative to know exactly how much to open or close a clubface (in relation to swingpath) to bring about a 5 yard curve, or a 10 yard curve.  It would seem with all the research that has been done recently, that this information would be attainable, similar the graph that Zeph included regarding initial direction vs. face angle.

The reason this is important is in the real world.  If I want to draw a six iron 5 yards to a back left hole, do I open the clubface 2* and align myself 4* right?  Or is the correct amount 1* open and 3* right?   I realize there are variants involved, but there must have been research done to quantify this, other than just to say "quite a bit" or "it depends". Right now, I guess at what feels right, and my results are not as good as I would like. As far as your question about whether it matters exactly how much, I would respond that the difference is that between a 10 foot putt for birdie and a 10 yard chip because I short-sided myself.  Big difference.

In the past, you have rejected my idea that practice and experimentation are necessary to determine how much to modify the clubface angle.  So there must be data out there that shows exactly how much.  That's all I'm trying to get at.  No ulterior motive here at all.

[sean_miller 377]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Well, that depends on the ball, the clubface, the mph of the swing, and wind.. But i would say it would still go left quite a bit.

Why did you take Harmonious' valid example and F it up by turning the guy's setup into an OTT exectution (i.e. swing flaw) and totally F up his scenario? Was it to make it seem like he was saying something contraty to the ball flight laws? What exactly is your agenda in this discussion?