The Dan Plan - 10,000 Hours to Become a Pro Golfer (Dan McLaughlin)

[iacas]

http://thedanplan.com/flightscope-ready-and-some-d-plane-thoughts/

"I digress, though, and will post a thorough review once I have had the new machine for a month or two. "

They gave him a FlightScope????

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

I'm not saying that we can't improve our body speed slightly. I am saying we can't improve it very much.

Luke Donald will never hit a ball as far as Rory McIlroy no matter how many weights he lifts.

Greg Maddox could never throw as fast as Sandy Koufax no matter how hard he worked at it (and he was a bigger stronger guy).

You might take a guy that runs a 5 flat 40 and get him down to a 4.8 but he'll never be a 4.3 guy. Another guy might run a 4.4 the first day he walks on a field.

We can of course improve our technique and get the most out of what we've got.

I would shift this slightly.  I've posted this before, but I find it interesting, so here goes.

I don't think you are born with it, I think what you do in very young years matters a whole whole lot.  I'm (obviously) not sure what ages or details etc.... but I don't think its genetic, I think there is some period that is formative that is really, really important.

I could serve a tennis ball when I played in college about as hard as the average ATP player.  I swung really, really fast.  I also had a tennis court at my house growing up and have pictures of me as a baby/toddler swinging tennis racquets around.  I remember trying as a little kid to hit a ball over a particular tree over and over and over, swinging as hard as I could.  I grew up hitting a tennis ball *hard* and when I got older I could hit it hard.

I swing a golf club decently hard, but nowhere near (relatively speaking) by overhead motion with a racquet.  Even today, I can clock that racquet extremely hard, close to pro speeds, and I don't play anymore.

If it was muscle speed or something biological then it shouldn't be different.  I think there is a big-time connection between what you do at young ages and what you can do when your older.  Some way the muscles learn to move and let go.

Who knows, but I think this is more likely than being born with it.

[nevets88]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nevets88

http://thedanplan.com/flightscope-ready-and-some-d-plane-thoughts/

"I digress, though, and will post a thorough review once I have had the new machine for a month or two."

They gave him a FlightScope????

Loaner, no? We loan it to you, you write up a good review? Tit for tat?

[iacas]

Loaner, no? We loan it to you, you write up a good review? Tit for tat?

Probably. Since he did mention "training" too. Plus it may just be an Xi+ or something. The Xi is only $2500 or so.

Pretty sure he still hasn't read (or even bought) LSW. :)

[nevets88]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nevets88

Loaner, no? We loan it to you, you write up a good review? Tit for tat?

Probably. Since he did mention "training" too. Plus it may just be an Xi+ or something. The Xi is only $2500 or so.

Pretty sure he still hasn't read (or even bought) LSW. :)

How is he qualified to write a decent review though? He's just going to regurgitate the marketing/instructional materials. Nothing against Flightscope. This is how you do marketing. It's how I would do it.

Someone else post on LSW on his FB or blog - I don't want to repeat myself.

[Lihu]

I would shift this slightly.  I've posted this before, but I find it interesting, so here goes.

I don't think you are born with it, I think what you do in very young years matters a whole whole lot.  I'm (obviously) not sure what ages or details etc.... but I don't think its genetic, I think there is some period that is formative that is really, really important.

I could serve a tennis ball when I played in college about as hard as the average ATP player.  I swung really, really fast.  I also had a tennis court at my house growing up and have pictures of me as a baby/toddler swinging tennis racquets around.  I remember trying as a little kid to hit a ball over a particular tree over and over and over, swinging as hard as I could.  I grew up hitting a tennis ball *hard* and when I got older I could hit it hard.

I swing a golf club decently hard, but nowhere near (relatively speaking) by overhead motion with a racquet.  Even today, I can clock that racquet extremely hard, close to pro speeds, and I don't play anymore.

If it was muscle speed or something biological then it shouldn't be different.  I think there is a big-time connection between what you do at young ages and what you can do when your older.  Some way the muscles learn to move and let go.

Who knows, but I think this is more likely than being born with it.

I think you were born with tennis talent, and my only proof is the fact that your family owns a tennis court. Normally people don't own a tennis court with the hopes that they can get their kids to learn to play tennis at a high level of proficiency.

The cause is more than likely a demonstration of talent (maybe even one of the parents), then the purchase of tennis courts.

Of course there are exceptions of people who own tennis courts while their kids possess no talent in the sport. This is more the exception than the rule, as there are <1% of the population that can afford such a luxury.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

I think you were born with tennis talent, and my only proof is the fact that your family owns a tennis court. Normally people don't own a tennis court with the hopes that they can get their kids to learn to play tennis at a high level of proficiency.

The cause is more than likely a demonstration of talent (maybe even one of the parents), then the purchase of tennis courts.

Of course there are exceptions of people who own tennis courts while their kids possess no talent in the sport. This is more the exception than the rule, as there are <1% of the population that can afford such a luxury.

My dad built it because he loves to play tennis (although he was bad, relatively speaking).  It was there for a decade or so before I was born, it wasn't built because I displayed aptitude.

My point was in response to those saying your either born with fast-twitch muscle fibers or you not, I don't think thats true.  I don't understand what in biology would permit me to swing a racquet as hard as I can swing it but can't swing a golf club a similar speed relative to the professionals in each sport.  I think it is much more likely an upbringing issue.

To extrapolate that b/c I had a tennis court as a kid I likely had a biological talent for swinging a tennis raquet hard that didn't carry over to a golf club seems silly to me. I think its much more likely that because I was repeating that motion several hundred times a week from age 3 or so to age 20 was the big difference.  But I suppose nobody can prove/disprove anything in this area (or at least without a lot of difficulty).

[Slice of Life]

I think you were born with tennis talent, and my only proof is the fact that your family owns a tennis court. Normally people don't own a tennis court with the hopes that they can get their kids to learn to play tennis at a high level of proficiency.

This is where I tend to disagree (all opinion of course, since there's no real way to prove any of this). I think you're born with a certain level of athletic talent, not talent pertaining to a specific sport.

If Rafael Nadal grew up playing Baseball or Golf instead of tennis, I bet he'd be a top player in either. Some skills translate better, but you can't teach speed or hand eye coordination past a person's physical limitations.

[Lihu]

Quote:

This is where I tend to disagree (all opinion of course, since there's no real way to prove any of this). I think you're born with a certain level of athletic talent, not talent pertaining to a specific sport.

If Rafael Nadal grew up playing Baseball or Golf instead of tennis, I bet he'd be a top player in either. Some skills translate better, but you can't teach speed or hand eye coordination past a person's physical limitations.

Agree, and same with other talents like speed and strength.

My dad built it because he loves to play tennis (although he was bad, relatively speaking).  It was there for a decade or so before I was born, it wasn't built because I displayed aptitude.

My point was in response to those saying your either born with fast-twitch muscle fibers or you not, I don't think thats true.  I don't understand what in biology would permit me to swing a racquet as hard as I can swing it but can't swing a golf club a similar speed relative to the professionals in each sport.  I think it is much more likely an upbringing issue.

To extrapolate that b/c I had a tennis court as a kid I likely had a biological talent for swinging a tennis raquet hard that didn't carry over to a golf club seems silly to me. I think its much more likely that because I was repeating that motion several hundred times a week from age 3 or so to age 20 was the big difference.  But I suppose nobody can prove/disprove anything in this area (or at least without a lot of difficulty).

Right, that's why I said the only real proof is that someone in your family either has or at least thought they have talent in tennis. In this case it was your dad, with whom you share genetic material. Also, I am guessing he has more talent in it than the normal "dad".

Sure, something like this is very tough to prove, but there are many examples of athletic parents raising athletic children.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by Lihu

Agree, and same with other talents like speed and strength.

Right. Anyone can build up strength through diet and exercise, but there are the same limitations. I will never look like Arnold Schwarzenegger from the 70s. Ever. No amount of iron and steroids will get my frame to that level haha.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

This is where I tend to disagree (all opinion of course, since there's no real way to prove any of this). I think you're born with a certain level of athletic talent, not talent pertaining to a specific sport.

Right, but I could serve a tennis ball as fast as low-level ATP players at 18.  I've been playing golf longer (Relatively speaking) and my speed isn't anywhere close to a tour pro.

This is why I think it is early childhood, not biology.  If it was biology, shouldn't I be able to swing a golf club relatively speaking as fast as a pro without equal time in to both?

And its not close either.  Its not like with golf I'm jut behind the tour pros and with tennis I'm right there.  I'm nowhere close with golf (been very intense player last 6-7 years) and I can still, to this day, swing a raquet at a tour speed (despite not playing for a decade or so).

I think we confuse biology with the first 3-10 years of motor development as kids.  I think the later is much more important.

But, like you say, impossible to test.

[Pretzel]

But, like you say, impossible to test.

Unless you had identical twins with parents who had the inclination to do so.

[Slice of Life]

Right, but I could serve a tennis ball as fast as low-level ATP players at 18.  I've been playing golf longer (Relatively speaking) and my speed isn't anywhere close to a tour pro.

This is why I think it is early childhood, not biology.  If it was biology, shouldn't I be able to swing a golf club relatively speaking as fast as a pro without equal time in to both?

And its not close either.  Its not like with golf I'm jut behind the tour pros and with tennis I'm right there.  I'm nowhere close with golf (been very intense player last 6-7 years) and I can still, to this day, swing a raquet at a tour speed (despite not playing for a decade or so).

I think we confuse biology with the first 3-10 years of motor development as kids.  I think the later is much more important.

But, like you say, impossible to test.

Meh. I grew up playing baseball, but I can swing a golf club almost as fast as a tour pro (Not that it translates into playing good golf) even though I didn't grow up golfing.

I've only played tennis for 4 years, but can swing a racquet faster than I could ever control it haha.

I don't think you necessarily develop the speed needed for a sport when you're younger, but the muscle memory comes quicker. You can learn how to properly do something much quicker...your body (and brain) isn't as stubborn. If you went to an instructor, I bet he could point out 3-4 different things that are hampering the speed in your golf swing. It's not that the potential isn't there, it's that your body is too old and stubborn to make the changes necessary as quickly. (not implying you're old...you could be 20 for all I know...that's still old as far as muscle memory stubbornness is concerned)

If you have the athletic skill needed to play tennis at a high level, you probably have the potential to swing a golf club fast. Speed is important in both sports.

[Lihu]

Right, but I could serve a tennis ball as fast as low-level ATP players at 18.  I've been playing golf longer (Relatively speaking) and my speed isn't anywhere close to a tour pro.

This is why I think it is early childhood, not biology.  If it was biology, shouldn't I be able to swing a golf club relatively speaking as fast as a pro without equal time in to both?

And its not close either.  Its not like with golf I'm jut behind the tour pros and with tennis I'm right there.  I'm nowhere close with golf (been very intense player last 6-7 years) and I can still, to this day, swing a raquet at a tour speed (despite not playing for a decade or so).

I think we confuse biology with the first 3-10 years of motor development as kids.  I think the later is much more important.

But, like you say, impossible to test.

I think it might be your timing. It seems like there is a very small space in time and distance from the ball where the club head really accelerates.

A little history of my background, and why I think talent is born and not bred.

My thing in High School was Cross country, track, cycling and criterion. I was really fast for a local cycle racer and regularly passed other racers on the local roads, but not nearly as good as the kids who could win regional races. I would come in with or even trailing the "pack". I did serious cycling since I was 3-5 years old in Taiwan. Obviously, this did not insure my ability to compete even at the regional much less the state levels. Lots of other kids were in the same predicament as me. Some accepted it early on, some didn't. Then there were some kids started at 14 and moved on to state and nationals. They just had the talent and explored it later in life.

Later in life, I also started rock climbing. After getting HAPE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_pulmonary_edema) climbing the big mountains, I couldn't go high (<4000m is fine, now) any more. I started around my early 20s, and climbed with lots of people who started when they were less than 7 years old. Some of them were around 3? At first, I heard comments that I would never climb to their level. Well, the comments ceased when I was regularly climbing 5.12b (all over Yosemite(CA), Tuolumne Meadows(CA), Joshua Tree(CA) and Estes Park/surrounding areas (CO)), and the one 5.12d (The Pirate on suicide) and some face climb at 5.13b in Yosemite (forgot the name, it was not on-site and I thought I was on a different 5.12c route [wrong fairway]). I even did  a boulder problem called "Midnight lightning" (after 100s of attempts I pulled it off when my foot stuck a crystal of rock for the dyno move, some climbers said I didn't really pull it off and it was luck [it was :-)] ). I was nothing special , but I surpassed many of the early starters in less than 2 and a half years rock climbing. I do credit having good coaches from Yosemite Valley teach me, and spent 3 days a week on the crags. I even built a climbing wall in my apartment complex.

I also recall reading about  a climber who started at 65 years old. Climbed in the 5.12 range within a year of taking it up, which is kind of like becoming single digit golfer in a year.

So, starting young is not a guarantee that you will develop the talent. If you have the native talent for something you can always bring it out and apply it to some degree or another.

[Shorty]

Right, but I could serve a tennis ball as fast as low-level ATP players at 18.

A more relevant fact may be that you could serve the ball faster than John McEnroe or Martina Navratilova.

What does it actually mean? That you still wouldn't be able to take a game from either of them.

Any discussion about Dan's relative swing speed, smash factor is irrelevant.

Fact is, he wouldn't be in the top 50 players in any golf club in The U.S., U.K. or Australia.

His "quest" becomes more and more absurd.

[Lihu]

A more relevant fact may be that you could serve the ball faster than John McEnroe or Martina Navratilova.

What does it actually mean? That you still wouldn't be able to take a game from either of them.

Any discussion about Dan's relative swing speed, smash factor is irrelevant.

Fact is, he wouldn't be in the top 50 players in any golf club in The U.S., U.K. or Australia.

His "quest" becomes more and more absurd.

Yeah, I tend to agree. Fast swing speed and high SM are not necessarily going to guarantee a low score.

The only reason it came up is because Dan stated his swing speed with a 7i is in excess of 90mph with a SM of 1.38. This makes him as fast but 4% more efficient than a PGA pro. I thought this was also absurd.

[nevets88]

This is a bit off topic.

I had the opportunity to receive from a tennis ball machine thingy that simulated serves at 125mph+ - this was a bit after university and I played tennis a fair bit. No amount of training, instruction or hocus pocus was going to allow me to return a ball at that speed on a consistent basis. And those were straight up flat serves. No kick, no slice. Blink, and it's right past you.

I knew someone who was a pretty good college DII player I think. He got the opportunity to hit with Jim Courier (multiple major wins). For awhile, he could keep up with him and he thought, hey, I'm not too shabby. Then Courier unleashed one of his trademark rocket forehands and he never even saw the ball.

If you've seen top 100 men's tennis up close, like linesman close, these guys are ****ing incredible. When I was a kid, I was able to go to the US Open practice sessions and saw all the top players practice. They can do anything with the ball and are so freaking coordinated, it's superhuman. It doesn't look like much on tv from a camera 50 feet away, but man, these guys are specimens.

[Lihu]

This is a bit off topic.

I had the opportunity to receive from a tennis ball machine thingy that simulated serves at 125mph+ - this was a bit after university and I played tennis a fair bit. No amount of training, instruction or hocus pocus was going to allow me to return a ball at that speed on a consistent basis. And those were straight up flat serves. No kick, no slice. Blink, and it's right past you.

I knew someone who was a pretty good college DII player I think. He got the opportunity to hit with Jim Courier (multiple major wins). For awhile, he could keep up with him and he thought, hey, I'm not too shabby. Then Courier unleashed one of his trademark rocket forehands and he never even saw the ball.

If you've seen top 100 men's tennis up close, like linesman close, these guys are ****ing incredible. They can do anything with the ball and are so freaking coordinated, it's superhuman. It doesn't look like much on tv from a camera 50 feet away, but man, these guys are specimens.

It's impressive even from a an HDTV. Looks pretty much like a blur unless you have 240 frames per second.