Beware of the sandbaggers

[SVTGolfer]

Sandbaggers are everywhere. I played one today. Guy was a posted 30 handicap and he played like a 20 or better! I had to give him 12 strokes, and he kept up with me making pars just like I was. I was losing holes to him in match play because of his sandbagger stroke handicap. Really pissed me off! Good luck though man, all you can do is play your best and hope its enough. Thats all I could do.

[zeg]

Sandbaggers are everywhere. I played one today. Guy was a posted 30 handicap and he played like a 20 or better! I had to give him 12 strokes, and he kept up with me making pars just like I was. I was losing holes to him in match play because of his sandbagger stroke handicap. Really pissed me off! Good luck though man, all you can do is play your best and hope its enough. Thats all I could do.

Be careful assuming high-handicappers who play well are sandbagging. The handicap system is at its least reliable for high-handicappers. For example, although I don't have an official handicap, I track all my scores and would have a 26.8 at the moment, mostly made up of 9-hole rounds paired up according to the official method. A week or two back, I shot a 41 for 9 holes, which was an 8.1 differential---i.e., that'd be a 16 handicapper playing to his handicap! According to the tables for exceptional scores, that should happen once every few thousand rounds or less. Yet I've had a handful of instances like that in the last year---this is the best one, but I've beaten my handicap by 5 or 6 strokes a few times. This is not sandbagging, it's mostly the result of improvement. The assumptions behind the handicap system don't account for that, they assume that the handicap indexes describe a golfer whose average score will stay the same over time. Also, in my case (and probably many other high-handicappers), my biggest problem is consistency. My good shots are very good and I often get two or three pars in nine holes with bogey being a typical hole. However, more often than not an 8 or 9 sneaks onto the scorecard for one hole. It'd be easy to see how someone might be suspicious about whether that's intentional or not, but believe me, I'd love to see my index drop! (I never play in competitions, so I have no interest in gaining an advantage, I use my index as a score and I want it as low as possible!)

[Shindig]

The other issue, which zeg alludes to, is that there are plenty of high handicaps who can get net pars and even some net birdies on a handful of holes when things go well, but have blow-up holes.  In stroke play, this balances out.  In match play, this actually gives an advantage -- that blow up only costs them one hole, instead of several to net-par.

When I was struggling to break 100, I'd have many rounds with things like 8 bogeys, 8 double bogeys, and 2 snowmen.  In match play, that would have been playing to my handicap (at the time!) on 16 holes.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Shindig

The other issue, which zeg alludes to, is that there are plenty of high handicaps who can get net pars and even some net birdies on a handful of holes when things go well, but have blow-up holes.  In stroke play, this balances out.  In match play, this actually gives an advantage -- that blow up only costs them one hole, instead of several to net-par.

It balances out somewhat. I think that a lot of people don't apply Equitable Stroke Control and thus turn in scores that are slightly too high.

This largely affects the higher handicapper also. Most lower handicappers either know ESC or don't have blow-up holes they'd have to apply ESC to very often.

[saevel25]

That can be true, but a system we use is match play with handicaps, but also give 2 points to the person who has net stroke, score + handicap. This helps equal things out a bit.

[zeg]

That can be true, but a system we use is match play with handicaps, but also give 2 points to the person who has net stroke, score + handicap. This helps equal things out a bit.

Yeah, I've often seen reference to adjusting the number of strokes to give fewer than the difference would suggest being done. It seems that flighting the tournament to keep the number of strokes being given down to a few is common, also. Either way, based on other threads, the consensus is strong that something needs to be done to avoid situations where one player is giving a large number of strokes to another.

[clubchamp]

Originally Posted by SVTGolfer

Sandbaggers are everywhere. I played one today. Guy was a posted 30 handicap and he played like a 20 or better! I had to give him 12 strokes, and he kept up with me making pars just like I was. I was losing holes to him in match play because of his sandbagger stroke handicap. Really pissed me off! Good luck though man, all you can do is play your best and hope its enough. Thats all I could do.

That's the point of a handicap? I'm confused because you are saying he kept up with you which is the point of a handicap to even the match of 2 golfers with different ability. I'm assuming based on your other post you must have won the match so were you also sandbagging? Based on what you're are saying it sounds to me like the system worked perfectly kept the match close and the better golfer was able to win. I would think if he was claiming a 30 and played to a 20 you probably would have gotten a beaten.

[SVTGolfer]

Originally Posted by zeg

Quote:

Originally Posted by SVTGolfer

Sandbaggers are everywhere. I played one today. Guy was a posted 30 handicap and he played like a 20 or better! I had to give him 12 strokes, and he kept up with me making pars just like I was. I was losing holes to him in match play because of his sandbagger stroke handicap. Really pissed me off! Good luck though man, all you can do is play your best and hope its enough. Thats all I could do.

Be careful assuming high-handicappers who play well are sandbagging. The handicap system is at its least reliable for high-handicappers. For example, although I don't have an official handicap, I track all my scores and would have a 26.8 at the moment, mostly made up of 9-hole rounds paired up according to the official method. A week or two back, I shot a 41 for 9 holes, which was an 8.1 differential---i.e., that'd be a 16 handicapper playing to his handicap!

According to the tables for exceptional scores, that should happen once every few thousand rounds or less. Yet I've had a handful of instances like that in the last year---this is the best one, but I've beaten my handicap by 5 or 6 strokes a few times. This is not sandbagging, it's mostly the result of improvement. The assumptions behind the handicap system don't account for that, they assume that the handicap indexes describe a golfer whose average score will stay the same over time.

Also, in my case (and probably many other high-handicappers), my biggest problem is consistency. My good shots are very good and I often get two or three pars in nine holes with bogey being a typical hole. However, more often than not an 8 or 9 sneaks onto the scorecard for one hole. It'd be easy to see how someone might be suspicious about whether that's intentional or not, but believe me, I'd love to see my index drop! (I never play in competitions, so I have no interest in gaining an advantage, I use my index as a score and I want it as low as possible!)

I do not disagree with you. I was once I high handicapper myself, and Im still not a low handicap, so I know how it works. This particular guy was baggin it imo. I played with him, but not against him two weeks in a row now, and both rounds he shot much better than his handicap, in fact not even close to his handicap. I mean Im hitting shots in to the green 8 feet from the flag, and he's sticking them 2-3 feet? Come on!? Some of the shots he was making just don't match up with a high handicapper, and they were not accidents, and he wasn't "getting hot." Dude was really making some good and consistent shots. 30 handicaps shouldn't be hitting GIR or really making pars. The occasional hole sure, but over the past two weeks ive seen this guy be consistent off the tee (and in the fairway) and hit just as many GIR's as me and his opponents, along with draining a lot of very nice LONG putts!!! He literally played like an 18-20 handicapper.

Handicaps do not bother me one bit... in regular stroke play, but in match play its ridiculous!

[SVTGolfer]

Originally Posted by clubchamp

That's the point of a handicap? I'm confused because you are saying he kept up with you which is the point of a handicap to even the match of 2 golfers with different ability. I'm assuming based on your other post you must have won the match so were you also sandbagging? Based on what you're are saying it sounds to me like the system worked perfectly kept the match close and the better golfer was able to win. I would think if he was claiming a 30 and played to a 20 you probably would have gotten a beaten.

In this case the system worked ok. I still think it was unbalanced for "match play." And if he would have played like his handicap says it would have been a non issue, but I had to give this guy 12 freakin strokes and he played as well as I did!!! I was far from bagging it. I played almost right to my handicap, and it wasn't pretty. If you look at the score cards the way the handicaps were established it would have been very fair for stroke play because I think I beat him by 12 strokes. However, a 30 handicapper should be taking 6's 7's & or 8's on holes, not 4's or 5's. I did not play my best that day and Im lucky I hung on and stayed in it mentally. Otherwise he would have smoked me the way he was playing, and by that I mean consistently. The sandbagging question arises when this guy was able to make some of the shots he made and do it consistently. Along with that I watched him play the week before (we were in the same group) and he did the same thing. Trust me, those of you who play competitive golf know the difference between watching someone get "hot" and watching someone sandbag. I heard about how he played in the second round, I saw him first hand play the third round, and I played against him in the fourth round, and he did not fluctuate in his game. One or two fall apart holes on each side, but all others were even with me. I just dont see how. I used to be a high handicap, so I know how it goes, and I was never like that even when I was a 21!

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by P-Town Golfer

I don't even know my true handicap and I just learned some new golf lingo from this thread haha. But I normally hover around low 80's ...break 80 on good days...but lets say I normally shoot an 82 and par for the course is 72...does that make me a 10 handicap (basically)

I know you have to play so many rounds and take course slope and rating into account to get your handicap but I'm just trying to guesstimate

If you play on a "typical" course your handicap is probably somewhere in the high single digits, 8 or 9.  It's impossible to guess any closer than that without knowing the course rating and slope.

[SVTGolfer]

I also played in a tournament last year where the guy who won my flight was supposedly an 18 or 19 handicap and he shot an opening round 89, followed by a final round 82! WTF!? I think the tournament admin should have done something about that, but of course they didn't. That's clearly sandbagging at its most blatant. I was pretty disappointed. Its a great tournament, at a great golf course, and I would like to play in it again this year, but if they're going to allow this to happen Im not sure I want to play again. Not worth the time and money if there's no actual chance to compete or ultimately win.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by SVTGolfer

I also played in a tournament last year where the guy who won my flight was supposedly an 18 or 19 handicap and he shot an opening round 89, followed by a final round 82! WTF!? I think the tournament admin should have done something about that, but of course they didn't. That's clearly sandbagging at its most blatant. I was pretty disappointed. Its a great tournament, at a great golf course, and I would like to play in it again this year, but if they're going to allow this to happen Im not sure I want to play again. Not worth the time and money if there's no actual chance to compete or ultimately win.

A guy has ONE exceptional round and you accuse him of sandbagging?????  Sheesh.   An 82 is not that unusual for a bogey golfer to shoot for a single round, and 89 would be considered fairly normal.  I've shot many rounds in the 70's (my low is 73) while never carrying a handicap less than 10.  I suppose you'd accuse me too if you caught me on a good day.  Never mind that the next time I'm as likely to shoot a pair of 89's.

[Chief Broom]

Originally Posted by SVTGolfer

I also played in a tournament last year where the guy who won my flight was supposedly an 18 or 19 handicap and he shot an opening round 89, followed by a final round 82! WTF!? I think the tournament admin should have done something about that, but of course they didn't. That's clearly sandbagging at its most blatant.

I disagree that this is blatant sandbagging.  As an 18 that means the guy's usual score is 90 (or thereabouts).  His opening round was close to his number and his 82 could easily have been the result of a good round.   Mid-cappers are by definition consistantly inconsistant.  All it takes for a mid-capper is a couple of lucky breaks and something in their swing to click and they can easily shoot in the low 80's.

The handicap system isn't perfect but it works pretty well especially when you play in flights.  After all aren't tournaments supposed to be won by the person who busts out a career round?

[kpaulhus]

I always have fun with the handicap system. My handicap fluctuates a lot becasue I play about 10 rounds a month. I can be a 8 one week, and a 12 the next. Ill shoot a round with a 5 dif, and a round with a 17 dif. Golf is a funny game. I feel sorry for the guy who catches me on the rebound of some bad rounds.

[Fraser]

When my brother and I were at boarding school we were accidental sandbaggers. The club we were at would only let your handicap be adjusted if you were competing in a tournament at the club. Well since we'd not be playing at the club for months on end our handicap would remain unchanged, even though we'd go and practice on the grounds at school quite often. As a result when we entered the Junior Championship, one of the first summer tournaments we'd often shoot well under our handicaps, one year my brother played very well before you take into account the fact he was an accidental sandbagger and shot net 55 and net 58 over the 36 holes that day (par 69 course). Given everyone's reactions and what they were saying throughout the day I'm surprised he wasn't slow clapped or booed collecting his trophy...not much we could do about it, pretty much everyone else in the junior section went to the state schools and played regularly at the clubs. As a result of that effort my bro's handicap was slashed 9 strokes in one hit!

[Shindig]

Originally Posted by Fraser

When my brother and I were at boarding school we were accidental sandbaggers. The club we were at would only let your handicap be adjusted if you were competing in a tournament at the club. Well since we'd not be playing at the club for months on end our handicap would remain unchanged, even though we'd go and practice on the grounds at school quite often. As a result when we entered the Junior Championship, one of the first summer tournaments we'd often shoot well under our handicaps, one year my brother played very well before you take into account the fact he was an accidental sandbagger and shot net 55 and net 58 over the 36 holes that day (par 69 course). Given everyone's reactions and what they were saying throughout the day I'm surprised he wasn't slow clapped or booed collecting his trophy...not much we could do about it, pretty much everyone else in the junior section went to the state schools and played regularly at the clubs. As a result of that effort my bro's handicap was slashed 9 strokes in one hit!

I wouldn't quite call you a sandbagger.  I'd call that a bad handicapping system.  The two of you, it seems, would have submitted your scores given a chance.  It's not like you omitted the low ones deliberately in order to help you in a tournament.

[Fraser]

Originally Posted by Shindig

I wouldn't quite call you a sandbagger.  I'd call that a bad handicapping system.  The two of you, it seems, would have submitted your scores given a chance.  It's not like you omitted the low ones deliberately in order to help you in a tournament.

Very true, and due to the massive chop in my bro's handicap at the Junior Open later that season he was about 10 strokes off the pace! Still didn't stop the other juniors calling us sandbaggers though

[stealthduffer]

Well, being a "numbers guy" I'll theorize that there are different ways to attain a certain handicap - particularly mid to high handicaps.  Golfer A is a short hitter but accurate.  He plays to an 18 by basically bogeying every hole.  Maybe the odd double and a par or birdie from time to time.  Golfer B is also an 18 and is a long hitter but erratic.  He'll make a lot of pars and bogeys but then have a blow up hole or two (or five) every round.  Theoretically ESC should lower Golfer B's handicap but I know a lot of golfers who don't understand and/or don't use ESC.  If Golfer B has a good day and avoids the blow ups he might have a round in the high 70's or low 80's - but watch him if he shoots 3 or 4 good rounds in a row (especially in a tournament).  Golfer A is less likely to shoot that low score because he has less opportunity to break out of his pattern.  If Golfer A shoots below his handicap for a tournament then I'd be more likely to call foul on his stated handicap.

But back to the OP's issue - play your game and do your best.  Assuming that your league goes on for a number of weeks there will be a chance for the numbers to work out.  Especially so if the league president is experienced as you say.