Steve Jobs doesn't like golf

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quality is high. Various customer satisfaction surveys, reviews, etc. bear that out. Is it the highest? Nope. Is it higher than virtually every other pre-built computer? Yep. Better than one you can build yourself? Nope.

And Apple feels that controlling "the whole widget" is the way to go. I'd tend to agree that their approach works really well. Look at the Android market - some OSes won't work on some phones, some apps or games play like crap or crash on certain kinds of phones, etc. Windows has always been a hellish mess of device drivers and so on. Apple is able to popularize things like USB because of this approach. The new connectivity thing (Thunderbolt) will likely follow a similar route.

For the small percentage of folks who enjoy building computers, good for them. I'm glad they enjoy it. The rest of just want to get work done, or play, or enjoy our computers, and I think Macs excel at that.

I have no grudge against PCs. They're cheaper (in more ways than one) in my opinion and they're great computers for a lot of people. Some people seem to really hate Apple, though, and by extension, the people who like Apple. I never understood that (nor am I saying you're one of those people...).

I know where this will go, so I'll save us the time: we'll agree to disagree, and get back to talking about golf. ;-) Cheers!

My company currently has 7% of laptops as Macs. 40% of RMA however, is Macs. Right at this moment, I have 17 faulty Macs on my benches, and 6 other brands faulty.

So 93% of our units are from other OEMS ( HP, Dell, Toshiba etc ) and they only make up 60% of our RMA.

I work on them for a living and can tell you, the innards of a Mac are poorer quality than a lot of other companies ( except maybe Acer/Gateway ). The shells can be nicer ( apart from the old white plastic macs...renowned for cracking/staining ) but it's just a shell.

I use Macs as much as PCs and actually like Macs for a lot of things ( ie. the magnetic power coupling )..... what I don't like is the association they have with being higher quality, because, they are not. Plain and simple.

And the fact is, I could build a PC for someone to work straight out of the box, for cheaper, and it would be much more reliable.....but if people want to pay more, for technically less, than that is absolutely fine. Apples marketing and direction is the best in the world and good on them for that, they're an extremely successful company.

And I don't think it is fair to consumers who pay a premium for Macs to have to shell out further money for proprietary peripherals and connectivity. Dell is the same in some regards.

Like you said anyway

Back to golf!

[Yukari]

Originally Posted by Clambake

....

Only after driving past them and turning to say thanks did we notice it was Gates and Buffett out together.    They had been playing so deliberately on the greens that we assumed they had a good bet going on, but knowing those two it was probably only a buck a hole.  ....

I think you are correct.

I read somewhere that whenever Gates and Buffett plays, they play for a quarter (per stroke?) or $1.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Kieran123

I work on them for a living and can tell you, the innards of a Mac are poorer quality than a lot of other companies ( except maybe Acer/Gateway ). ... what I don't like is the association they have with being higher quality, because, they are not. Plain and simple.

I used to work on them for a living too. And I've seen the studies. I disagree completely, and if you want the last word, be my guest, but this seemed like a silly way to go about trying to get it. :-P

Originally Posted by Kieran123

And I don't think it is fair to consumers who pay a premium for Macs to have to shell out further money for proprietary peripherals and connectivity. Dell is the same in some regards.

I have no idea what decade you're living in. I'm using a Logitech mouse, a Harmon Kardon set of speakers, a USB microphone by some other company, a keyboard from someone else... USB card readers from tons "Dynex" and SanDisk, cameras from Casio and Sony and Canon, a Firewire scanner by UMAX (this thing is OLD), an external hard drive by Drobo, three printers all by different makers (oops, sorry, two are HP), wireless routers by both Apple and other companies... headphones by Sony.

Silliness. C'mon, you've gotta do better than that. What connectivity or peripherals are proprietary? eSATA? USB? Firewire 400 or 800? 802.11a, b, g, n... ethernet, what? My goodness, it's not like Macs still ship with ADB cables or something.

[B-Con]

On this topic: Isn't Bill Gates a member Augusta National? Those in the tech industry are used to weird, long hours. It's hard to get onto a golf course when you have the hours of a software developer. Not impossible, but hard. It's not like you're out by 5, and earlier on Fridays. Also, the tech crowd tends to be the type that's more concerned with the mentally abstract things, not physical coordination. Some engineers have a more hands-on mentality, but the software types are generally more abstractly oriented. The guys at the top of the industry were usually both of those to extremes. There are lots of them that do both, but on average not many would care enough about golf to take it up. Couple the average apathy with the practical difficulty and I think that explains the seeming lack of golfers in the digital world. I'm just surprised that I've seen at least three other people on this forum who have solid Unix/Linux experience within the last 12 or so years (because everyone in tech in the 90s practically had to have some sort of Unix experience). [quote=nevets88]The Fortune article (not online) says he uses conference sites with no golf courses.[/quote] Does he actually dislike golf, or does he just not like having his executives distracted by sports when they go to conferences? I could see almost any sane executive making a similar decision. :-P [quote name="Kieran123" url="/forum/thread/46510/steve-jobs-doesn-t-like-golf#post_603551"]

Unless you want to use a common ball, which wouldn't be compatible.....neither would common tees, or gloves. Oh...and it would be a generation behind at launch

It would look nice though...

[/quote] Yeah, but the ball and tee would automatically tee-up for you to the correcting height depending on the club you pulled out of your bag. Also, their clubs would be shank-proof. And their balls would be solid white with no number or design save one lone Apple logo. :-P

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by iacas

I used to work on them for a living too. And I've seen the studies. I disagree completely, and if you want the last word, be my guest, but this seemed like a silly way to go about trying to get it. :-P

I have no idea what decade you're living in.  I'm using a Logitech mouse, a Harmon Kardon set of speakers, a USB microphone by some other company, a keyboard from someone else... USB card readers from tons "Dynex" and SanDisk, cameras from Casio and Sony and Canon, a Firewire scanner by UMAX (this thing is OLD), an external hard drive by Drobo, three printers all by different makers (oops, sorry, two are HP), wireless routers by both Apple and other companies... headphones by Sony.

Silliness. C'mon, you've gotta do better than that. What connectivity or peripherals are proprietary? eSATA? USB? Firewire 400 or 800? 802.11a, b, g, n... ethernet, what? My goodness, it's not like Macs still ship with ADB cables or something.

But it's fact. Our RMA number percentages confirm it. It's no argument

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by B-Con

Also, their clubs would be shank-proof.

And their balls would be solid white with no number or design save one lone Apple logo.

Not shank proof, in fact, easier to shank, just less people would shank it because of it's market share

[glock35ipsc]

Originally Posted by nevets88

When I think of SV, Buffett and Gates don't come to mind. Gates Seattle, Buffett Oklahoma.

Why Oklahoma?  Buffet lives/works in Omaha, Nebraska.

[Kieran123]

Does anyone know Gates' handicap?

[newtogolf]

I'm more a PC guy than Apple.  I actually ordered my first PC from Michael Dell directly when his company was called PC's Limited.  I also used to build my own PC's.  I made a significant investment in Adobe graphics and web development software and don't want to buy it all over for Apple so all I work on is PC's.

That said, I don't question the RMA numbers you're seeing, but understand they are far off from industry numbers.  Apple computers are considered more reliable and have less service incidents than PC's, many magazine do surveys and research and will confirm this if you do a search on it.  I think part of the reason is, people view a PC as open, they buy video card and sound card upgrades, add memory, hard drives, etc, where as with an Apple it seems like you use it how you bought it (minus external add-ons) and throw it out when it doesn't do the job for you anymore.  If I was starting from scratch, and budget wasn't an issue I'd buy Apple.

As for Jobs not playing golf, I'm not surprised, he's made a career out of doing X when everyone else was doing Y.  Playing golf like Bill Gates and others would be selling out in his mind, he likes to still pretend he's a bit of a rebel.

Originally Posted by Kieran123

But it's fact. Our RMA number percentages confirm it. It's no argument

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I'm more a PC guy than Apple.  I actually ordered my first PC from Michael Dell directly when his company was called PC's Limited.  I also used to build my own PC's.  I made a significant investment in Adobe graphics and web development software and don't want to buy it all over for Apple so all I work on is PC's.

That said, I don't question the RMA numbers you're seeing, but understand they are far off from industry numbers.  Apple computers are considered more reliable and have less service incidents than PC's, many magazine do surveys and research and will confirm this if you do a search on it.  I think part of the reason is, people view a PC as open, they buy video card and sound card upgrades, add memory, hard drives, etc, where as with an Apple it seems like you use it how you bought it (minus external add-ons) and throw it out when it doesn't do the job for you anymore.  If I was starting from scratch, and budget wasn't an issue I'd buy Apple.

As for Jobs not playing golf, I'm not surprised, he's made a career out of doing X when everyone else was doing Y.  Playing golf like Bill Gates and others would be selling out in his mind, he likes to still pretend he's a bit of a rebel.

But would you not consider building a PC that is customizable, faster and cheaper?

I understand the need for some people without experience to buy Apple, and that is fine, but with technical background, would you not want to do it yourself?

ie. the low end Mac Pro is $2500....sure it has a Xeon ( why is beyond me ) but nothing else it has is exceptionally fast, in fact, it's downright embarrassing relative to price. 3Gb DDR 1333 Ram? 2 5770 GPUs? 1Tb HDD? DVD Writer?

How is $2499 justified here?

Do you know how far $2499 goes with a PC? It would build a PC four times the speed of that Mac with better warranty and room for future upgrading

[GolfHippy]

I am a bit annoyed with Jobbs lately. I have been looking into mobiles for the first time and all I can see is the iphone is a proprietry system. Everything, tunes, software the lot seems to be tied into the apple product. So if I ever decided to get another phone at some time, nothing I would have amassed would work on it.

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by GolfHippy

I am a bit annoyed with Jobbs lately. I have been looking into mobiles for the first time and all I can see is the iphone is a proprietry system. Everything, tunes, software the lot seems to be tied into the apple product. So if I ever decided to get another phone at some time, nothing I would have amassed would work on it.

I have an iPhone 3GS, it is a great tool....I've replace the microphone twice, as well as the ear piece and it consistently locks up and bogs down, but Apps are very handy, especially since it's jailbroken

There is no phone as handy as the iPhone, not yet anyway.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Kieran123

But would you not consider building a PC that is customizable, faster and cheaper?

Total cost of ownership is still less expensive with the Mac. That hasn't changed in decades...

And you cherry picked the Mac Pro. That line hasn't been updated in awhile and is targeted very specifically. PC Magazine (or one of those) cited the MacBook Pro as the best laptop for running Windows and many of the Apple laptops are incredibly competitively priced... The Mac Pro, eh... I have one upstairs. Works great and I've been using it for quite awhile. 99% of people will buy an iMac, Mac Mini, or a portable.

... particularly when you factor in total cost of ownership. And, you know, not having to use Windoze.

Assuming your numbers, which go against the much broader studies, were accurate... I'd just point out that Hondas might be more reliable than a BMW. Doesn't mean there's not a place in the world for BMWs or that people who buy BMWs instead of Hondas or kit cars are dumb. ;-)

[ahilal]

Originally Posted by GolfHippy

So if I ever decided to get another phone at some time, nothing I would have amassed would work on it.

I would say that you are mostly correct on this. In particular the photos and music and podcasts that I've spent time amassing and configuring are a huge reason I stick with the iPhone even through I'm curious to try an Android phone. It's not that photos and music wouldn't work elsewhere, it's just that the whole app / phone / data / computer setup is highly integrated and would be difficult to uproot and transfer as a whole on a totally different platform.

However I would add two qualifications:

1) The only reason I've amassed such an investment in these apps is that they work really well . If they didn't, I would not have gotten so sucked into them. iTunes the computer app is a bit of a resource pig but the way it integrates with the music store and podcast subscriptions is just superb. And so yes, I've got quite the library going.

2) I could, with some work, migrate the stuff I care about away to something else. It's not impossible. It would be difficult. But do other apps on other platforms really make it super-fast-easy to migrate to a competitor? I don't have a lot of info personally but I'm guessing that Anrdoid doesn't bend over backward to help you migrate onto an iPhone if you decide to.

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by iacas

Total cost of ownership is still less expensive with the Mac. That hasn't changed in decades...

And you cherry picked the Mac Pro. That line hasn't been updated in awhile and is targeted very specifically. PC Magazine (or one of those) cited the MacBook Pro as the best laptop for running Windows and many of the Apple laptops are incredibly competitively priced... The Mac Pro, eh... I have one upstairs. Works great and I've been using it for quite awhile. 99% of people will buy an iMac, Mac Mini, or a portable.

... particularly when you factor in total cost of ownership. And, you know, not having to use Windoze.

Assuming your numbers, which go against the much broader studies, were accurate... I'd just point out that Hondas might be more reliable than a BMW. Doesn't mean there's not a place in the world for BMWs or that people who buy BMWs instead of Hondas or kit cars are dumb. ;-)

What's wrong with Windows? Oh...blue screens, viruses, driver incompatibilities etc....most of which are caused by end user or hardware manufacturers bad drivers not optimized for Windows.

I haven't had a bluescreen or virus since around 2001, when I was 14 years old and was still learning about computers.

This is where Macs shine, someone with no computer experience can use one without having to worry about viruses etc, but to blame Windows, is wrong.

Windows Vista was a bloat, no doubt, but by the end of Service Pack 2 ( albeit a long time ), was a stable and strong OS. XP was good, 7 is great. Windows 8 looks to be just as good. Lets not talk about Millennium Edition

iMacs are also expensive relative to what they come with ( weak GPU being one thing ) and their lack of expandability. But, regardless, the user is mainly paying for the LCD especially moving up into the 27"

To be clear, there is nothing wrong with Apple computers, I am just saying, you can get more for your money going custom, and having manufacturer warranty ( usually 3 years plus ) on most components inside a custom PC compare to Apples one year, is another huge benefit....and a lot of manufacturers will replace dated video cards that have failed say after 2 years, with current video cards. ( ie. a GTX460 fails after 2 years, you may get a GTX560 as a replacement )

Apple laptops are being priced closer to what they are worth, but not yet....hopefully with more market share in the future the price will drop, and only then, would I consider one ( running Ubuntu and Windows though )

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Kieran123

What's wrong with Windows? Oh...blue screens, viruses, driver incompatibilities etc....most of which are caused by end user or hardware manufacturers bad drivers not optimized for Windows.

I haven't had a bluescreen or virus since around 2001, when I was 14 years old and was still learning about computers.

This is where Macs shine, someone with no computer experience can use one without having to worry about viruses etc, but to blame Windows, is wrong.

No, you're making assumptions and putting way too many words in my mouth about how I feel and think about Windows, and I'm done now.

[newtogolf]

Part of what drives the massive hardware requirements on PC's is Windows.  I have built gaming and multimedia PC's for friends and it is nice to be able to buy custom components, but the problem is when they fail, they call me.  If I told them to get a Mac, they'd go to the Apple store and I'd never have to hear about their virus issue, or bloated registry problem because they download every free app they can find.

Apple desktops and laptops aren't cheap, but they are well made, the Apple OS is simpler for the average person, and overall they make sense for technically illiterate people.  I'm actually telling most people who want a laptop to look at iPads since most people just use them for surfing the web.  I got one for my wife so I have one less PC in the house to deal with (we have six).

Originally Posted by Kieran123

But would you not consider building a PC that is customizable, faster and cheaper?

I understand the need for some people without experience to buy Apple, and that is fine, but with technical background, would you not want to do it yourself?

ie. the low end Mac Pro is $2500....sure it has a Xeon ( why is beyond me ) but nothing else it has is exceptionally fast, in fact, it's downright embarrassing relative to price. 3Gb DDR 1333 Ram? 2 5770 GPUs? 1Tb HDD? DVD Writer?

How is $2499 justified here?

Do you know how far $2499 goes with a PC? It would build a PC four times the speed of that Mac with better warranty and room for future upgrading

[Copaman]

This thread has gone from being a thread about Steve Jobs not enjoying golf, to a thread about a few guys well educated in computers arguing about Macs. On one side, there are Apple supporter and on the other, a guy who has numbers from one specific place in the world to back up his claims in addition to people who flat out mock Apple.

I mean, I'm a PC user at the moment (but well educated in the art of Mac-Fu) and a lot of the arguments presented by both sides are valid, but uhhh... guys, can we not?

I think that golf is a wonderful game and those who choose not to play it are missing out on something awesome, Mr. Jobs included. Not to mention, with all that money he has, he could get to play all the great courses out there AND the breathtaking ones as well. Sometimes they are one and the same.

P.S. I heard that when Steve Jobs wants to pay Crysis 2, he uses a PC. ;)