Is this a fair game?

[Zimmy]

Like most of you on here, I have a regular weekend group I play with.  It's a great group of guys.  We usually just play skins and greenies, which is fine, but the group wheels off the lowest handicap, which is mine.  I usually start the year at about a 4, and am able to work my day down to sratch over the course of the season.  I'm currently 2.

Our group, which is usually about 8-10 players, uses thef full handicap.  The next lowest handicap is a 4, but most of the others are in the 9-11 range.  I know there are larger issues in the world, but this doesn't seem like a fair game to me.  I seldom win any skins because my birdies will usually get covered up with somene who parred the hole, but then got a stroke.  In our last six games I've won exactly two holes, even though my highest score was a 77, and I shot two even par rounds, and a few just one over.   I'm not always the low round - we've got some guys who are certainly capapble of beating me on any given day - but I'd say I'm low at least 7 times out of ten.  I just don't have anything jingling in my pocket to show for it.

And it's not a money thing.  We don't play high stakes by an means.  We usually throw $4.50 into the pot for skins, and $2 for greenies.  My kids aren't going hungry, but it's more a principal of the thing.

I'd be fine with using handcaps if we used stroke-play, but this system seems to heavily favor those with the higher handicaps.  I've got two questions:  One, is this a fair way to run our game?  And two, what type of games do you play with your group.

Thanks.

[JayMc]

This is why our weekly men's league is dying.  The lowest handicap guy almost always gets burned in these kind of deals.

We keep our money games to groups with similar h'caps and smaller $ amounts.  It just seems to work better that way.

[Paradox]

if you're throwing money on it, you play straight up unless its pure stroke play in which case the low man still has the ability to win.  Theres no sense in betting if you don't wanna play without your handicap.

[rebby]

I strongly prefer playing [url=http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/46774/sandbagging-is-there-such-a-thing/18#post_606706]straight up[/url]. Net golf just [url=http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/38762/unpopular-opinion-i-m-sure-i-hate-net-golf]isn't for me[/url].

[iacas]

I stopped playing in these kinds of games for the same reason. I was a 0 playing with guys who were 14-28 handicaps. It was with partners and I was never able to help my partners win much unless we got really hot AND all the other teams stunk up the joint that day.

Skins games don't favor the lower handicappers. Odds are, if it's a few low handicappers and a lot of higher ones, the higher ones will par or even birdie to take the net skin.

You should suggest gross skins. Maybe they pay out half as much or even pay out to just one person who had the most gross skins. Or one payout for low gross and one for low net.

[Harmonious]

Playing skins with a group of higher handicaps is just not going to result in much winning for you.

Assume this scenario:  You are a 2. One other guy is a 4. Six guys are a 9.  You get a stroke on the #1 and 2 handicap holes, so you play everyone straight up, but birides will be tough to get, and only one of the other guys needs to match you.  On handicap holes #3 thru 9, you have basically no chance.  You just have to hope that everyone cancels each other out.  On handicap holes #10-18, if you birdie, only one out of the other 7 players needs to birdie to cancel you out.  But those are probably your best chances, especially if a couple of them are par 5's.   But otherwise, you are pretty much SOL with a group that large.  Net skins work OK for a foursome, or a large tournament (when they usually also have gross skins as well), but for 8 players, it's tough.

1)Work on your iron game, and win some of the greenies. 2) Make the big skins winners buy the drinks.

[Kieran123]

It's your guys' fault for being good at the game......

[Tomboys]

Originally Posted by Zimmy

Like most of you on here, I have a regular weekend group I play with.  It's a great group of guys.  We usually just play skins and greenies, which is fine, but the group wheels off the lowest handicap, which is mine.  I usually start the year at about a 4, and am able to work my day down to sratch over the course of the season.  I'm currently 2.

Our group, which is usually about 8-10 players, uses thef full handicap.  The next lowest handicap is a 4, but most of the others are in the 9-11 range.  I know there are larger issues in the world, but this doesn't seem like a fair game to me.  I seldom win any skins because my birdies will usually get covered up with somene who parred the hole, but then got a stroke.  In our last six games I've won exactly two holes, even though my highest score was a 77, and I shot two even par rounds, and a few just one over.   I'm not always the low round - we've got some guys who are certainly capapble of beating me on any given day - but I'd say I'm low at least 7 times out of ten.  I just don't have anything jingling in my pocket to show for it.

And it's not a money thing.  We don't play high stakes by an means.  We usually throw $4.50 into the pot for skins, and $2 for greenies.  My kids aren't going hungry, but it's more a principal of the thing.

I'd be fine with using handcaps if we used stroke-play, but this system seems to heavily favor those with the higher handicaps.  I've got two questions:  One, is this a fair way to run our game?  And two, what type of games do you play with your group.

Thanks.

We do something similar.  Our group has players from 7 to 16 'cappers and we play a skins game without carry-overs where everybody puts in $20.  However, we also add polee putts, greenies, sandies, edgie putts, birdies and eagles.  Basically, everything is worth a point (including the skin) and we play full handicaps.  In order for someone to win a skin, they have to win the hole outright via par or better and the player's handicap is factored in.  In contrast, you only get a point for the "junk" if the player scores a "natural" par or birdie.  At the end of the round, all the points are added up and divided into the pot.  From there, the money is dispersed accordingly.

For example, let's say player A (7 capper) and player B (14 capper) are playing a par-4 number 12-handicap hole.  Based on the hole handicap, player A gets no stroke, but player B does.  Both put their approach shot into a greenside bunker.  Player A hits out of the sand and 1 putt for a par.  Player B also hits out of the sand trap, but 2 putts for bogey.  The way this would be scored is that since the score is tied (player A = 4, and player B = net 4), the skin is tied and does not carry to the next hole.  Essentially, the skin is gone.  However, player A gets a sandie (1 point) but player B does not since his "par" was not a natural one.

Another example is if player A makes a natural birdie, he would get a point.  Player B makes a natural par, but nets birdie due to his handicap.  The hole, again, is tied, but player B does not get a point because his birdie wasn't natural.

The above is the main reason why we play the "junk"; it gave the better golfers in our group an opportunity to get some points which would offset the inability to capitalize on just the skins.  It took us years to develop this "game" and we've found it to be very fair.  Rarely does the same player win twice in a row and even if you don't win a single skin, you can capitalize on some of the junk and not lose your entire $20.

[walk18]

I strongly prefer playing [url=http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/46774/sandbagging-is-there-such-a-thing/18#post_606706]straight up[/url]. Net golf just [url=http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/38762/unpopular-opinion-i-m-sure-i-hate-net-golf]isn't for me[/url].

I agree. If I get beat by a scratch, so be it.

[x129]

You played 108 holes and won 2.  That seems pretty reasonable to me. With 10 people playing, I would guess about 3/4s of the holes are split(feel free to correct me with the exact number) which means that only about 27 skins awarded and if the handicaps are right, everyone should have 2-3 of them.

Skins games favor players with a lots of varience in their game.   A guy who can shoot a round of 9 birdies and 9 double bogies will tend to be a better skins player than one that can shoot 18 pars in a skin game. That description fits a lot of mid handicappers who can execute excellent shots but don't have the consistancy to execute 18 holes worth and have a couple of blow up holes per round.

Originally Posted by Zimmy

I seldom win any skins because my birdies will usually get covered up with somene who parred the hole, but then got a stroke.  In our last six games I've won exactly two holes, even though my highest score was a 77, and I shot two even par rounds, and a few just one over.   I'm not always the low round - we've got some guys who are certainly capapble of beating me on any given day - but I'd say I'm low at least 7 times out of ten.  I just don't have anything jingling in my pocket to show for it.

[Chief Broom]

I like the post outlining the various forms of "junk" that produce points while also factoring in "net" skins.  You've either got to create a factor in your game that allows for the various handicaps of all the players or flight your league so that only like handicaps compete with each other.  If your league is big enough flights should work otherwise you've got to structure the game so that everyone playing has an equal chance to win given that they play well in regards to their own game (me playing well on a tough course is shooting in the low 80's whereas someone like iacas playing well means even par or better).

[meenman]

Why not split the pot in half for gross and net skins?

Every tournament that I have played in, I have had the option of playing either or both. Myself, gross is a waste of my time, and for the single digits net is a waste of theirs

[ghalfaire]

I think the handicap system was designed to sort of "even the odds" for an 18 hole metal play tournament.  But when you play skins or several other games I can think of it is 18 tournaments of 1 hole each.  That is a different game and the handicaps do favor the higher handicaps (up to a point).  I believe this is particularly true when everyone plays off the lowest handicap for the reasons stated in the OP (your birdies get matched and your pars are worthless).

[mattttt25]

My buddy and I recognize that your scenario doesn't work and we adjust this way- if he normally shoots 10 strokes better than me, I get 5 strokes when playing skins.  No real logic in this, but it seems to work.

[goblue107501]

I would suggest one of two things.  First, ask everyone to play straight up, at least a few times, to see what happens.  If they are all inside of an 11 or 12 handicap, it shouldn't be an issue.  I would be willing to bet the lesser players would step up and you will have a better game overall.  When I am the worst player in the group it makes me want to play better.  I'm not off pouting in the corner if I don't get strokes.  I know I may lose, but I'm also not going to request any sort of help.  I want the challenge.  They should all be good enough players to make a birdie or two a round with a bunch of pars sprinkled in.  I played in a daily skins game (anywhere from 5 to 20 players) with my Dad when I was living at home many years ago.  Even though I probably averaged 85-90, I would still manage a skin or two every other round or so.  It was enough that I could cover the expences of playing in the game.  Never even entered my mind that I should get an advantage.  I would have been laughed off the course if I had even brought it up.

The second thing would be to only play off half handicap.  Assuming that everyone is friends, or at least friendly, they should go for it.   That way you are not entierly screwed and everyone can at least have a little something.  To me, still not ideal.  I think any skins game should be played straight, but it would be better than full handicap.

[wmiller]

If there's any type of handicap system used, I won't play for money. Almost never do anyway. Occasionally I'll play my friend for a few bucks, at his urging, but I only give him 2 a side. Mostly he loses, but he says it forces him to concentrate more.

Handicaps are, IMO, good for flighting a group of golfers in a tournament, but each flight should be playing gross. IMO of course...  :)

[WUTiger]

Quote:

My buddy and I recognize that your scenario doesn't work and we adjust this way- if he normally shoots 10 strokes better than me, I get 5 strokes when playing skins.  No real logic in this, but it seems to work.

Years ago, I had about a 15 HDCP and often golfed with a guy who had played Div. II golf at Portland State U. He carried about a 2 HDCP.

We played matches this way: I got a full stroke on Par 5s, a half-stroke on Par 4s, and no strokes on Par 3s. He would win some money most of the time, but on the occasional day I played well, I won more than he usually did. Made for an interesting 18-month series.

If you could inject a half-stroke limit for HDCP on one class of holes, it might help you out. Not sure if it would be Par 3, 4 or 5. Or, you might limit HDCP strokes to a half stroke for HDCP holes 10 through 18.

[Crab Daddy]

A lot of good ideas out there. My two cents would be to put 18 numbers in a hat and draw 4 (2, 5, 8 ???) hole numbers, which would be 'no handicap' holes. Totally random each time around.