Hinge and still holding concerns...

[cantmiss]

After reading a topic on here I am a bit confused. I have watched some of mickelsons dvd teaching the hinge and hold and have been toying with it a bit. In the dvd mickelson teaches a quick hinge of the wrist in the backswing but this differed from a discussion on here which confused me a bit. Many were suggesting a forward press for the hinge rather then doing it in the backswing. What is proper?

Also while reading I have come across discussions on phils method vs the pelz method and this too confused me a bit. My knowledge of the pelz method is a bit limited but from my understanding its playing off back foot, delofting club… isn’t this very similar to a forward pressing hinge and hold?

[B-Con]

Pardon my potential ignorance, but this is my understanding: The backswing is mostly the torso, the wrists hinge a little before the downswing, and this position is held all the way through impact. The entire point in "hinging and holding" is that when you return your hands to the point where they started, the clubhead is a little behind where it started. Thus you don't have to manipulate your hand position in order to let the clubhead come, naturally, down on onto the ball, bottoming out a little farther than where it started. I'm only familiar with "forward press" with reference to putting. I assume you're referring to weight forward and hands ahead of the ball? Phil also teaches that. Put the two together: Weight forward, hands forward, then hinge and hold during the swing. That's how I chip. :-)

[Harmonious]

However you do it, you want your hands ahead of the clubhead for good contact.  That's why Pelz says to play chips off your back ankle.  Haven't seen Mickelson's videos, so can't comment on them.

[senorchipotle]

can't miss. i think you're overthinking this. every good downswing starts with a "hinge and hold." if you don't hold your hinged position and move the club with your shoulder rotation then there's a pretty good chance something undesirable is going to happen(like a shank). this is not some magical formula that pelz and mick came up with in a basement in arizona. this is what every person with a decent shortgame does. i've never seen a 10 handicap who doesn't chip or pitch the ball in this way. basically, pelz came up with a good marketing name for this "method" and is selling it to anyone who'll buy.

i'm not offering a commentary on whether or not the dvd's are worth it, cause i don't know. apparently many people learn a lot of good stuff with them. perhaps it is indicative of my dislike for marketing ploys at large, but i do find the whole "hinge and hold" thing a little misleading, as if it's some sort of new concept.

[cantmiss]

Originally Posted by B-Con

Pardon my potential ignorance, but this is my understanding:

The backswing is mostly the torso, the wrists hinge a little before the downswing, and this position is held all the way through impact. The entire point in "hinging and holding" is that when you return your hands to the point where they started, the clubhead is a little behind where it started. Thus you don't have to manipulate your hand position in order to let the clubhead come, naturally, down on onto the ball, bottoming out a little farther than where it started.

I'm only familiar with "forward press" with reference to putting. I assume you're referring to weight forward and hands ahead of the ball? Phil also teaches that.

Put the two together: Weight forward, hands forward, then hinge and hold during the swing. That's how I chip. My

My question involves an immediate hinge in the backswing that mickelson teaches,  as seen in .  The forward press I am talking about is similar to putting, in hands ahead of the ball.  I was wondering if that was a sufficient enough hinge.

[cantmiss]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

However you do it, you want your hands ahead of the clubhead for good contact.  That's why Pelz says to play chips off your back ankle.  Haven't seen Mickelson's videos, so can't comment on them.

makes sense but if your already forward pressing your hands would you still play it off the back ankle?

[cantmiss]

Originally Posted by senorchipotle

can't miss. i think you're overthinking this. every good downswing starts with a "hinge and hold." if you don't hold your hinged position and move the club with your shoulder rotation then there's a pretty good chance something undesirable is going to happen(like a shank). this is not some magical formula that pelz and mick came up with in a basement in arizona. this is what every person with a decent shortgame does. i've never seen a 10 handicap who doesn't chip or pitch the ball in this way. basically, pelz came up with a good marketing name for this "method" and is selling it to anyone who'll buy.

i'm not offering a commentary on whether or not the dvd's are worth it, cause i don't know. apparently many people learn a lot of good stuff with them. perhaps it is indicative of my dislike for marketing ploys at large, but i do find the whole "hinge and hold" thing a little misleading, as if it's some sort of new concept.

After thinking about it understand what you mean by "every good downswing starts with a hinge and hold," I think the unique thing *to me at least* is the in the very beginning, the breaking of the wrists, and not turning the hands over in the finish.  But all in all your probably right, as i tend to over analyze things and I'm sure I'd be best suited just going out there and experimenting.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by cantmiss

makes sense but if your already forward pressing your hands would you still play it off the back ankle?

Absolutely.

[senorchipotle]

Originally Posted by cantmiss

After thinking about it understand what you mean by "every good downswing starts with a hinge and hold," I think the unique thing *to me at least* is the in the very beginning, the breaking of the wrists, and not turning the hands over in the finish.  But all in all your probably right, as i tend to over analyze things and I'm sure I'd be best suited just going out there and experimenting.

yeah, when you're chipping, you're swinging a lot slower, so you have to firm up the wrists and hold the face square, because you don't have centrifugal force working in your favor. you don't turn your hands over in the full swing, either, your turn should do that for you.

[B-Con]

My question involves an immediate hinge in the backswing that mickelson teaches,  as seen in .

The forward press I am talking about is similar to putting, in hands ahead of the ball.  I was wondering if that was a sufficient enough hinge.

Forward press can give you some starting hinge, yes, but you should add more hinge to it. Like I said in my first post, hinging your wrists from their starting position fulfills a certain desirable function. You can't get it without hinging relative to how you start. The hinge that Phil shows in the video is somewhat dramatic. I personally prefer far less hinge than him. You referenced experimenting, and that's the type of thing I'd experiment with. Try different positions with the ball, different extents of forward press, and different degrees of hinge. Hopefully something will stand out as feeling more comfortable. Refine and continue to tweak as needed.

[Paradox]

Phil is not setting with a forward press before he swings so all he's doing is putting much more "lag"(for simplicity sake) is his chip by breaking the wrists to start the club movement.

If you put your hands forward and play the ball back in the stance, you'll need much less wrist break but you'll still have some from the natural motion of the swing.  The idea is just to get a descending blow into the ball that will provide max spin and keep you from leaving the ball where it lies.

[ohiolefty]

From Bobby Jones to Phil...hands ahead of the clubhead...especially while chipping. Hell, if you think hands ahead of the clubhead and just work on that, it's a great place to start. I also chip/pitch out of a divot to work on holding the angle and making sure I hit chips/pitches flush with a decending blow.

[inthecup]

I have Phil's video.  I think pitches or toss shots, 5 to 20 yards of varying height from a good lie should not be hinge and hold shots.  That is too many moving parts, things can get out of sync and go wrong.  I play those shots hands in front of the club head, little or no hinge.

Put the ball in deep rough and I use the hinge and hold to come down steep and dig it out.

Phil is Phil, he is the best.  I try to work with things that are more easily repeated day to day.

By the way what I am repeating (probably poorly) is taught at PGA tour Academy Schools.

[TourSpoon]

For me, the key to this is to feel like I am hitting the ball with the right hand. I try to get that feeling of that bend in the right hand that you have when you do the right hand only chipping drill. This seems to produce the most consistent results.

I almost always do some variation of hinge and hold. I love the action that you get on the ball and the reliability that starts becoming more predictable the more you do it. I have abandoned the old putting style chipping except for very limited circumstances.

[glock35ipsc]

I always understood the forward press as something that was very common with the older generation of golfers, and that it acts as a trigger for your brain and your body to say “get ready we are going into action”.

Ever since watching Mickelson's DVD's, I mostly abandoned the Pelz method and use the "hinge and hold" method.  Easy to practice in the house, and like TourSpoon said, it's very reliable.

[cantmiss]

Hey guys, thanks for all the responses.  I have been experimenting with it and have had alot of success. Even putting me in position to one putt which is somewhat remarkable for me.  Still testing out different setups as far as playing off middle/ back and where to position my weight but regardless, it works.

[golfjunky0331]

I too am experimenting with different positions and techniques ( in golf ) , :-D through about 3/4 of Dave peltz's short game bible and he says to play the ball off the back foot for certain chips but others in the center of stance, never in front of center even with the cut lob shot he plays it in center. Phil looks as if he's playing it forward of center with a narrow stance. I've tried both ways and have found its actually easier and more repeatable for me, off a mat anyway, to play a narrow stance hinge and hold either center or just off front foot weight mostly on front foot. Ball comes out higher but not sure how it will react yet since I'm practicing indoors but have the videos on the way I think I will keep the hinge and hold for these shots and the bump and runs. Short, short chips I like the pendulum putting type stroke with ball off back foot as peltz explains in his book.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by golfjunky0331

Short, short chips I like the pendulum putting type stroke with ball off back foot as peltz explains in his book.

See, for short, short chips, I don't even feel as if I'm using my arms - I turn and turn.

Different strokes...