Why have I always been told to work most on my short game?

[jamo]

Mark Sweeney's list (he's a geek, so he does analysis of more than putting) put GIR at the top, too, followed by PPGIR (which says a lot about proximity to the hole , because PGA Tour players are surprisingly close to each other in putting ability), double-bogey-or-worse rate, scrambling, go-for-its, PPR, and driving distance, and driving accuracy.

Some of the articles Sweeney has written are on the Aimpoint website: http://www.aimpointgolf.com/articles.html

[ND Fan]

Last night was a perfect example of why the short game is important

It was a strange round I had an OB on the second hole and didn't hit the ball all that bad but at nearly 7200 yards it was all I wanted in length.  Anyway even with a double on the second hole I shot 74 on a courses rated 74.9.  I hit the least amount of greens I can ever remember hitting.. Over the past 4 years my GIR average is 13.6, last night I hit 5 greens, I got it up and down 12 out of 13 tries.  We all have bad days hitting the ball and although I didn't feel too bad about my ball striking I was surprised that only five greens were hit.  The short game is the key to scoring period.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by ND Fan

Last night was a perfect example of why the short game is important

It was a strange round I had an OB on the second hole and didn't hit the ball all that bad but at nearly 7200 yards it was all I wanted in length.  Anyway even with a double on the second hole I shot 74 on a courses rated 74.9.  I hit the least amount of greens I can ever remember hitting.. Over the past 4 years my GIR average is 13.6, last night I hit 5 greens, I got it up and down 12 out of 13 tries.  We all have bad days hitting the ball and although I didn't feel too bad about my ball striking I was surprised that only five greens were hit.  The short game is the key to scoring period.

It's one round. If you averaged 5 GIR over the course of a year, you would not be a +1.7 index.

Nobody's saying never to practice the short game. Just that it's less important than many are told or led to believe.

[Deryck Griffith]

Originally Posted by ND Fan

Last night was a perfect example of why the short game is important

It was a strange round I had an OB on the second hole and didn't hit the ball all that bad but at nearly 7200 yards it was all I wanted in length.  Anyway even with a double on the second hole I shot 74 on a courses rated 74.9.  I hit the least amount of greens I can ever remember hitting.. Over the past 4 years my GIR average is 13.6, last night I hit 5 greens, I got it up and down 12 out of 13 tries.  We all have bad days hitting the ball and although I didn't feel too bad about my ball striking I was surprised that only five greens were hit.  The short game is the key to scoring period.

You were getting up and down for pars.  Most mid and high handicappers who struglgle are trying to get up and down for doubles and triples.

I would also assume that your misses to the green where closer in proximity to the actual green than most mid to high cappers who miss the green by a much larger margin than you did last night.

[max power]

Congratulations on your aberrant round and anecdotal evidence.  I'm sure all the 20 'cappers out there will be shocked to learn that a + 'capper is good at getting up and down.

Originally Posted by ND Fan

Last night was a perfect example of why the short game is important

It was a strange round I had an OB on the second hole and didn't hit the ball all that bad but at nearly 7200 yards it was all I wanted in length.  Anyway even with a double on the second hole I shot 74 on a courses rated 74.9.  I hit the least amount of greens I can ever remember hitting.. Over the past 4 years my GIR average is 13.6, last night I hit 5 greens, I got it up and down 12 out of 13 tries.  We all have bad days hitting the ball and although I didn't feel too bad about my ball striking I was surprised that only five greens were hit.  The short game is the key to scoring period.

[jshots]

Originally Posted by ND Fan

Last night was a perfect example of why the short game is important

It was a strange round I had an OB on the second hole and didn't hit the ball all that bad but at nearly 7200 yards it was all I wanted in length.  Anyway even with a double on the second hole I shot 74 on a courses rated 74.9.  I hit the least amount of greens I can ever remember hitting.. Over the past 4 years my GIR average is 13.6, last night I hit 5 greens, I got it up and down 12 out of 13 tries.  We all have bad days hitting the ball and although I didn't feel too bad about my ball striking I was surprised that only five greens were hit.  The short game is the key to scoring period.

I shot one of my best rounds ever a week ago and it was because I was getting up and down, but I was getting up and down because my ball striking was good and I wasn't missing by much. My short game was important, yes.

Another way i started looking at it: When you miss your line on a 10 yard shot by 15 degrees (assuming correct distance) you would be less than 10 feet from the pin. When you miss a 100 yard shot by 15 degrees you would be more than 25 yards from the pin (I know this isn't really how it would be). Very simple i know, but still a good point to consider imo. Distance may be more of what you are practicing in short game rather than direction, but I still think its a good point. If I have to choose which of those to get closer isn't it a no brainer to pick my longer shot since I still might have a good chance at making the shorter miss.

[NM Golf]

Originally Posted by x129

Personally I would take 100% scrambling over 100% GIR any day of the week. Not having to worry about bogey would be great......

I guarantee someone hitting 100% GIR will shoot a better score than someone hitting 50% GIR with 100% scrambling. Why? Lee Trevino explained it best....

"There are two things that won't last long in this world, and that's dogs chasing cars and pros putting for pars."

If you are a great scrambler that means you make a bunch of pars....in my club's tournaments a bunch of pars wouldn't win me a damn thing, and that's even more true on the PGA Tour. If you hit a bunch of greens that means you have birdie opportunities, last time I checked birdies were better than pars.

Originally Posted by ND Fan

Last night was a perfect example of why the short game is important

It was a strange round I had an OB on the second hole and didn't hit the ball all that bad but at nearly 7200 yards it was all I wanted in length.  Anyway even with a double on the second hole I shot 74 on a courses rated 74.9.  I hit the least amount of greens I can ever remember hitting.. Over the past 4 years my GIR average is 13.6, last night I hit 5 greens, I got it up and down 12 out of 13 tries.  We all have bad days hitting the ball and although I didn't feel too bad about my ball striking I was surprised that only five greens were hit.  The short game is the key to scoring period.

Just think of how much BETTER you would have scored had you hit 10 more greens! Getting up and down is great, and sure it is important, but I know my best scores only come when I hit a bunch of greens. If I miss more than 9 greens my chance of going real low is highly diminished. Again, you cannot score as well when you are one putting for par all the time.

[x129]

What if the 50% green is a result of being very agressive (after all you will get up and down if you miss all the time)at going at the pin so those 50% are all 6 foot putts while 100% is aiming for the fat part of the green leaving you a lot of 20 foot putts. There isn't much of a difference between a 30 foot put and a 20 foot chip. Neither one goes in on a regular basis and you should be able to leave the ball close enough to the hole for a reasonable par putt.

Originally Posted by NM Golf

I guarantee someone hitting 100% GIR will shoot a better score than someone hitting 50% GIR with 100% scrambling. Why? Lee Trevino explained it best....

"There are two things that won't last long in this world, and that's dogs chasing cars and pros putting for pars."

If you are a great scrambler that means you make a bunch of pars....in my club's tournaments a bunch of pars wouldn't win me a damn thing, and that's even more true on the PGA Tour. If you hit a bunch of greens that means you have birdie opportunities, last time I checked birdies were better than pars.

Just think of how much BETTER you would have scored had you hit 10 more greens! Getting up and down is great, and sure it is important, but I know my best scores only come when I hit a bunch of greens. If I miss more than 9 greens my chance of going real low is highly diminished. Again, you cannot score as well when you are one putting for par all the time.

[NM Golf]

Originally Posted by x129

What if the 50% green is a result of being very agressive (after all you will get up and down if you miss all the time)at going at the pin so those 50% are all 6 foot putts while 100% is aiming for the fat part of the green leaving you a lot of 20 foot putts.

So what if you are aggressive you still missed the green and you are still going to have to one putt for par. The thing is, this is a ridiculous argument. Nobody is 100% getting up and down. The Tour average is 56.71% of the time, Steve Stricker is the best on Tour and his average is still below 67%.

Originally Posted by x129

There isn't much of a difference between a 30 foot put and a 20 foot chip. Neither one goes in on a regular basis and you should be able to leave the ball close enough to the hole for a reasonable par putt.

There is a big difference between a 20 foot chip and an 30 foot putt actually. The Tour average for scrambling is 56%. The Tour average for 3-putting is less than 3% of the time. So you tell me that chipping is just as easy as putting. That stat says it all.

Look at it this way, if Steve Stricker misses 9 out of 18 greens in a round. According to his stats out of those 9 greens he hits he will one putt approx 30% give or take depending on the length (He one putts from 25 ft more than 3 times as often as he 3 putts from anywhere).

So:

9 GIR's = approx 3 under par.

Now on the 9 greens he misses, he is the best scrambler on the PGA Tour , but he only gets up and down an average of 66% of the time.

So:

9 missed GIR= 2 to 3 over par.

And you are telling me that you rather chip than putt? Its not even close you have a much, much better chance of scoring well if you hit greens.

[x129]

At 10 (50% longer than I suggested)  yards from the whole, the worst pro leaves the ball 5'7" from the hole. The best leaves it 2'2.

The worst pro putting from 25+ yards have a 3 putt% of 18%. The best has like 4%.

I am guessing those numbers work out pretty close.

Originally Posted by NM Golf

There is a big difference between a 20 foot chip and an 30 foot putt actually. The Tour average for scrambling is 56%. The Tour average for 3-putting is less than 3% of the time. So you tell me that chipping is just as easy as putting. That stat says it all.

And you are telling me that you rather chip than putt? Its not even close you have a much, much better chance of scoring well if you hit greens.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by x129

At 10 (50% longer than I suggested)  yards from the whole, the worst pro leaves the ball 5'7" from the hole. The best leaves it 2'2.

The worst pro putting from 25+ yards have a 3 putt% of 18%. The best has like 4%.

I am guessing those numbers work out pretty close.

They don't, but also, you're presuming an awful lot in that the pro is missing greens but still only leaving himself 30 feet away.

If he can hit the ball to 30 feet he should just aim at the green. And 25 yards is 75 feet. To use that as a basis for anything seems silly to me.

[Wallstreet]

Man this is a long thread.  I can only really speak from my own experience but I score way better with more GIR then with more up and downs.  It is way easier to 2 putt on average than chip and one putt.  Short game is very important, but I think hitting greens in regulation are much more important.  If you could put it on the green 18 out of 18 times, you would most likely shoot par or better even with a less than average short game.  But if you went 0/18 GIR, you would probably shoot 5+ over with the best short game.  Mainly because you probably wouldn't chip more than one or two in for birdie.

The bottom line for me is that two putting is way easier than a chip and a putt no matter what skill level you have.  I don't really see the argument.

[x129]

The yards should have been feet. And I am assuming nothing. The objection was that to the assertion that 30 foot put and a 20 foot chip are about the same and then used scrambling as a rational. I was just pointing out that using scrambling is BS since a lot of failed scrambles are do to bad tee/approach shots. If you look at the stats for  the specific shots they numbers are very close

Why do I think low GIR is related to attacking the pin? Look at the birdie or better percentage

RANK THIS WEEK	RANK LAST WEEK	PLAYER	ROUNDS	%	TOTAL BIRDIES	TOTAL HOLES	GIR RANK
1	1	Steve Stricker	45	26.77	212	792	29
2	2	Rickie Fowler	55	25.43	238	936	79
3	3	Bubba Watson	59	25.05	239	954	1
T4	T4	Dustin Johnson	47	25.00	207	828	18
T4	T4	Hunter Mahan	63	25.00	270	1,080	4
6	6	Webb Simpson	61	24.68	271	1,098	16
7	7	Nick Watney	51	24.65	213	864	14
8	8	Luke Donald	40	24.51	150	612	55
9	9	Phil Mickelson	50	24.42	211	864	62
10	10	J.B. Holmes	52	24.19	209	864	35
11	11	Aaron Baddeley	54	24.18	235	972	46
12	12	Matt Kuchar	63	23.98	246	1,026	15
13	14	Angel Cabrera	36	23.30	151	648	154
14	15	Charley Hoffman	70	23.11	287	1,242	47
15	T19	Chris Couch	54	23.05	224	972	95

Looks like being i the top 1/3 or so in GIR helps making birdies but it sure isn't a requirement. But if your in the top 10 in GIR, you are surely in the top 2/3of birdies right?

135

134

Chad Campbell

66

18.60

221

1,188

7

156	155	Heath Slocum	55	17.90	174	972	6
157	149	Ernie Els	40	17.84	122	684	9

Nope. And if you think this is just an odd year (after all it is only half way done) feel free to look at 2010, 2009 or 2008. I stopped looking after seeing 2008

8

-

Padraig Harrington

52

21.22

191

900

186

95

-

Joe Durant

92

19.20

318

1,656

1

That is basically the worst GIR possible and in the top 10 in birdie percentage and best GIR being pretty much average.

At the PGA level GIR doesn't matter a whole lot. Why is this?

1) they can chip and get out of sand

2) They are not missing GIR a lot because of out of bounds balls, shanked drives and the rest that plagues midcap and up players. The miss(a good chunk of the time) because they are agressive at attacking certain pins. They are looking for 10 foot putts for birdie and are willing to accept short chips from off the green when they miss

3) Another way of stating 2. They are not trying to maximized GIR. They are trying to minimize their score

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

They don't, but also, you're presuming an awful lot in that the pro is missing greens but still only leaving himself 30 feet away.

If he can hit the ball to 30 feet he should just aim at the green. And 25 yards is 75 feet. To use that as a basis for anything seems silly to me.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by x129

At the PGA level GIR doesn't matter a whole lot. Why is this?

That's funny, because a lot of smart people have proven it matters the most.

[Phil McGleno]

Originally Posted by iacas

That's funny, because a lot of smart people have proven it matters the most.

Why didn't you point out that Slocum, Els, Durant, and Campbell are just terrible putters?

http://www.pgatour.com/r/stats/info/wm2.html?119

http://www.pgatour.com/r/stats/info/?387

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

Why didn't you point out that Slocum, Els, Durant, and Campbell are just terrible putters?

Thought it might be obvious.

I'm comfortable with the statistics I've seen. I know where I stand.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by x129

I was just pointing out that using scrambling is BS

Not saying I disagree with his message, but yes, the way those stats were used to "support" his point was pure bullshit.

[NM Golf]

Let's just agree to disagree, arguing with you makes my head hurt.

You go practice your short game, I will hit some balls.