All-Time Top 15 Players

[jamo]

For my mist (which I already pretty much had sitting around for another purpose) I excluded Tom Morris, Old and Young, Simply because who were they playing? In fact, the only guy before WWI that I included is Vardon. 1. Nicklaus 2. Woods 3. Hogan 4. Jones 5. Nelson 6. Hagan 7. Player 8. Snead 9. Palmer 10. Watson 11. Sarazen 12. Trevino 13. Ballesteros 14. Thompson 15. Vardon It's probably flawed, but I think it's at least half-decent.

[laconic517]

anyone else get the feeling that arnold palmer is/was overrated?  Like how is he > Tom Watson aside from "impact" on the game and being popular to the masses?

I mean hes borderline top 10 to me if you just go by accomplishments(although to his credit 62 tour wins is impressive).  To me Watson and Player have to be > Palmer.

[Chilli Dipper]

Originally Posted by deasy55

People should really rate Young Tom Morris higher. He basically changed the way golf was played before dying at 24. He basically invented the sandwedge and was the first to use backspin.

On the first hole of the 1870 British Open he recorded a 3 on a 578 yard hole. That must have been about a par 6-7 in those days (no par back then).

He died two decades before the first US Open, and two decades before even the Open Championship was held outside of Scotland. The game wasn't even in its infancy then; golf was still incubating in its Scottish womb. Young Tom's fate parallels that of Jim Creighton, baseball's first star player, who died in 1862 at age 21, over a decade before the first major league was founded. He might have been the best ever, but he died young before his sport could reach mass appeal.

For another golfer who died well before he could make his full impact on the game, there's Tony Lema. Tony won 12 tournaments in four years, including the 1964 British Open at St. Andrews, then died in a plane crash at age 32 as his fame was reaching the level of Palmer and Nicklaus. Lema, who grew up poor in a family that worked in Oakland's shipyards, was Lee Trevino immediately before Trevino came to prominence, and it's hard to say how those two players would have co-existed.

[Chilli Dipper]

Originally Posted by laconic517

anyone else get the feeling that arnold palmer is/was overrated?  Like how is he > Tom Watson aside from "impact" on the game and being popular to the masses?

I mean hes borderline top 10 to me if you just go by accomplishments(although to his credit 62 tour wins is impressive).  To me Watson and Player have to be > Palmer.

My theory on Palmer: Hogan, Nelson, and Snead dominated professional golf from the late 1930s until the early 1950s. By the mid-1950s, Nelson had already retired, while Hogan and Snead (well into their forties) were in decline. Unfortunately, there was no immediate successor to to the trio's place at the top of the game: the generation of players who should have been reaching their primes then lost their late teens and early twenties serving in World War II, and the PGA Tour had already banished Bobby Locke, probably the world's best player at that point, for being too good. The list of major champions during that period resembles a roster of forgetability: Chandler Harper, Jim Turnesa, Walter Burkemo, Ed Furgol, Chick Harbert, Jack Fleck, Doug Ford, Jackie Burke, Dick Mayer, Jay and Lionel Hebert, Tommy Bolt, Dow Finsterwald, Art Wall, Bob Rosburg. The only person with a record resembling that of an elite player was Cary Middlecoff (40 wins, 3 majors), and he was a freaking dentist! This period coincided with the rise of television, and none of those guys were going to be the face of a new medium.

When Arnold Palmer came into prominence, he was young, handsome, charismatic, and way better than everyone else on the American tour at that time. He was the right player at exactly the right time, when golf was in dire need of a television star. That said, Jack Nicklaus blew Palmer out of the water after turning professional, Nicklaus and Gary Player had much longer careers as championship-caliber players, and Peter Thomson, likely his greatest contemporary, rarely played in America. All together, I would not rate Palmer above either the two who came before him (Hogan, Snead) or the two who came after him (Nicklaus, Player).

[max power]

I think most people have Palmer in the right spot, just behind Player, and just ahead of Watson.  Can't ignore the extra 23 victories, and factor in that during his prime years he had to contend with young Jack (maybe the best young golfer ever besides young Tiger).  I've got no argument with most of the lists, I just don't put Bobby Jones nearly as high as most people.  Outstanding golfer, one of the best of his generation, but length of his career and level of competition he faced simply don't measure up to the others on my list.  I see some people underrating Player a bit-could just be that his personality rubs some people the wrong way.

Originally Posted by laconic517

anyone else get the feeling that arnold palmer is/was overrated?  Like how is he > Tom Watson aside from "impact" on the game and being popular to the masses?

I mean hes borderline top 10 to me if you just go by accomplishments(although to his credit 62 tour wins is impressive).  To me Watson and Player have to be > Palmer.

[tristanhilton85]

Here's my list.

1. Jack Nicklaus
2. Tiger Woods
3. Ben Hogan
4. Sam Snead
5. Gary Player
6. Arnold Palmer
7. Walter Hagen
8. Tom Watson
9. Byron Nelson
10. Seve Ballesteros
11. Lee Trevino
12. Bobby Jones
13. Gene Sarazen
14. Nick Faldo
15. Phil Mickelson

Originally Posted by iacas

16.  McIlroy

Joking on the last one...

Pretty funny... but interesting.  Of all the young stars we have right now he could be the one (or one of the ones) that will someday be mentioned on a list like this

[laconic517]

Originally Posted by max power

I think most people have Palmer in the right spot, just behind Player, and just ahead of Watson.  Can't ignore the extra 23 victories, and factor in that during his prime years he had to contend with young Jack (maybe the best young golfer ever besides young Tiger).  I've got no argument with most of the lists, I just don't put Bobby Jones nearly as high as most people.  Outstanding golfer, one of the best of his generation, but length of his career and level of competition he faced simply don't measure up to the others on my list.  I see some people underrating Player a bit-could just be that his personality rubs some people the wrong way.

Watson played with Nicklaus during Jack's prime.   Not to mention Watson came within a slightly smaller bounce of winning the british open at 59.  I dont see how Palmer can be ahead of him.  He has more majors than Palmer and basically the 2nd half of his career was a waste due to bad putting.  IMO he competed longer against far tougher competition and has a better major championship resume than Palmer.  Palmer's only advantage is in the number of tour victories, but again, the puttting woes are probably to blame for that.

[Chilli Dipper]

Watson played with Nicklaus during Jack's prime.   Not to mention Watson came within a slightly smaller bounce of winning the british open at 59.  I dont see how Palmer can be ahead of him.  He has more majors than Palmer and basically the 2nd half of his career was a waste due to bad putting.  IMO he competed longer against far tougher competition and has a better major championship resume than Palmer.  Palmer's only advantage is in the number of tour victories, but again, the puttting woes are probably to blame for that.

Watson was the last "great" player to emerge before the rest of the baby boomer generation reached full maturity, and supplied the professional ranks with so many great players that it would be hard for any of them to win a lot of majors over the next twenty years. Tom was great enough to be Jack's equal during his early prime as Jack was in his late prime, then had several years when he and Seve were on equal footing ahead of everybody else. Tom didn't lose much to the field frok the mid-80s on (he stopped making as many putts), but the years 1947-1960 produced so many outstanding players that it was enough to turn him into a player who frequently contended but never won again.

[iacas]

I'm tellin' ya, guys. You're all forgetting Billy Casper. Just me and my man uttexas have him on our lists.

Haterz gonna hate! ;-)

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

BTW, even though she couldn't beat the men head to head, any list of great golfers that doesn't include Annika Sorenstam is flawed to me.

I disagree with this.  The issue is the list of the 15 greatest golfers of all time.  Annika is not better than anyone on that list, nor is she better than anyone on a reasonable list of the 100 greatest golfers of all time.  To get Annika on a list you would have to restrict it to the greatest women golfers of all time.  When you are talking about the greatest of all time it necessarily has to be in competition t the very highest level.  That is why no one makes the list on the basis of their performance as an amateur nor as a senior.  Likewise, no woman should make the list unless one establishes an outstanding record playing at the highest level.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by iacas

I'm tellin' ya, guys. You're all forgetting Billy Casper. Just me and my man uttexas have him on our lists.

Haterz gonna hate! ;-)

I agree with you.  I had a brain fart and left him off but I just went back and added him in.  I find it more useful to categorize players rather than rank them.

[deasy55]

Nah i'm happy with my list

Originally Posted by iacas

I'm tellin' ya, guys. You're all forgetting Billy Casper. Just me and my man uttexas have him on our lists.

Haterz gonna hate! ;-)

[mck]

problem I have with everyone's top three is if you give Hogan and Woods the longevity that Nicklaus had I think they both pass his record.  In Hogan's case you have to wonder what he would have done if he played in four majors a year.  I agree those guys are the top three, but the order is debatable.

[mirv]

well, this is based mostly on personal preference, though of course some of these guys are obviously top of the pile... (not necessarily in any order, just a general "top 15"):

1. jack nicklaus

2. ben hogan

3. sam snead

4. byron nelson

5. lee trevino

6. tiger woods

7. arnold palmer

8. billy casper

9. rory mcilroy (i know, a bit soon, but i really think that kid's the future)

10. fred couples (that swing may not have won many majors, but it sure is beautiful)

11. bobby jones

12. lorena ochoa (do we have to keep these as men-only?)

13. annika sorenstam (...see above)

14. julius boros (a lot of people think nicklaus's win at 46 was the oldest age to win a major, but boros has that honor, winning the PGA at 48)

15. gene sarazen (mr albatross, not to mention he invented the modern sand wedge)

[mirv]

Originally Posted by iacas

I'm tellin' ya, guys. You're all forgetting Billy Casper. Just me and my man uttexas have him on our lists.

Haterz gonna hate! ;-)

i didn't forget him.  :D  one of the best putters ever, i think.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by mirv

well, this is based mostly on personal preference, though of course some of these guys are obviously top of the pile... (not necessarily in any order, just a general "top 15"):

1. jack nicklaus

2. ben hogan

3. sam snead

4. byron nelson

5. lee trevino

6. tiger woods

7. arnold palmer

8. billy casper

9. rory mcilroy (i know, a bit soon, but i really think that kid's the future)

10. fred couples (that swing may not have won many majors, but it sure is beautiful)

11. bobby jones

12. lorena ochoa (do we have to keep these as men-only?)

13. annika sorenstam (...see above)

14. julius boros (a lot of people think nicklaus's win at 46 was the oldest age to win a major, but boros has that honor, winning the PGA at 48)

15. gene sarazen (mr albatross, not to mention he invented the modern sand wedge)

Respectfully, I must say that this list seems almost as bad as the video.  I also find it hard to believe it's in no particular order, since Jack is on top.  It definitely looks like you have McIlroy in the top 10 and Woods not in the top 5.  And Couples?  Based on his swing?

Brandon

[mirv]

well, nicklaus of course springs to mind right off the bat since he still stands as the best ever, as far as major victories go.  the rest were simply as i thought of them.  and couples fell into the "personal preference" category.  i love watching fred and totally envy his tempo and swing.  he can hit the ball a mile, he seems like a pretty down to earth nice guy, so he's in my personal top 15 favorite golfers, yes.

[misty_mountainhop]

Joyce Wethered anyone?