Idea to Get People to "Tee it Forward" More Often

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by SamW

The reasons I see that play is slower are these:

- generally people not being ready to play, especially on the green while your buddy is putting you can still be lining up your putt/shot so you are ready to hit it very soon after they do.

Don't take any of this the wrong way, the vast majority of players I've played with in the US are very aware of slow play and don't want it. But it really only takes 1-2 groups on the course to add an hour to everybodies round. Put it this way, if you have 4 golfers hitting around 90 shots on a course, each 10 seconds added to each players shot is worth an hour to the round... so not being ready to play is by far the biggest time killer, its got nothing to do with playing of the back pegs.

SamW has hit it right on the head!  People are not ready to play when it is their turn.  How many times have we seen a foursome (always in carts, BTW) where they all drive to one ball and all sit while one guy hits his/her shot.  Then they all drive to the next ball and sit while the next person hits his/her shot, and on and on until they get on the green, where they all stand around and watch the first person line up and hit his/her putt before the 2nd person even starts to look at their putt.

People who are ready to play, regardless of their ability, can play even the longest tees faster than those bozos playing from the shortest tees.

[ochmude]

Instead of varying the fee based on tee selection to attempt to improve pace indirectly, would it possibly work to make the greens fee directly proportional to the amount of time spent on the course?  Maybe setup a punch clock with the starter or something?

[jamo]

Instead of varying the fee based on tee selection to attempt to improve pace indirectly, would it possibly work to make the greens fee directly proportional to the amount of time spent on the course?  Maybe setup a punch clock with the starter or something?

I don't know if that would work. It's one thing to give people discounts for playing quickly, because then if the group in front of you is slow, so what? Oh no, you actually have to pay for drinks this time. But when you make people pay more, just because the group in front of them is slow that might be the point where you get angry customers.

[ochmude]

Originally Posted by jamo

I don't know if that would work. It's one thing to give people discounts for playing quickly, because then if the group in front of you is slow, so what? Oh no, you actually have to pay for drinks this time. But when you make people pay more, just because the group in front of them is slow that might be the point where you get angry customers.

The slow play thing is already creating lots of angry customers based on what I hear, not just in this forum but also in magazines and on The Golf Channel.  I've played with some seriously slow players.  I actually posted about it awhile ago.  Their attitude is that they paid for their round just like everyone else so they have every right to play at whatever pace they wish to enjoy their game.  They don't understand why anyone behind them would get worked up over their pace.  They wonder what the big rush is.  If you're out here to play golf, relax, slow down, and enjoy the game.  If you have somewhere else you need to be, maybe you shouldn't be on the golf course in the first place.  Seriously, that's exactly what someone told me when I was golfing with him and we were moving at a glacial pace.

From what I've observed, the biggest hurdle to overcome in getting people to play faster is answering the question "Why".  Consider this post from another thread (emphasis added by me).

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

Right, but thats the whole point.  Your desire to play faster is affecting his ability to play out his round.  Thats why its an interesting question. Again, why are you considering the other player's right to play faster rather than my playing partners right to play every stroke he paid for?  Don't they agree to accept things like that when they book a round at a public course?

The players with him are not an issue.  We know how slow he is and agree.  Its not a paired with a stranger situation.  The issue is why does certain players desire to go faster trump another players desire to play a full round, especially on a public course?

What's the answer to that question right now?  People talk about how slow play can affect someone's ability to enjoy their round, cause tee time scheduling issues, and whatnot, but those are tough for people to conceptualize.  If you can answer that question by stating, quite clearly, that someone's slow play is literally taking money out of your pocket, you will have gone a long way towards solving the problem, at least from my perspective.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by ochmude

The slow play thing is already creating lots of angry customers based on what I hear, not just in this forum but also in magazines and on The Golf Channel.  I've played with some seriously slow players.  I actually posted about it awhile ago.  Their attitude is that they paid for their round just like everyone else so they have every right to play at whatever pace they wish to enjoy their game.  They don't understand why anyone behind them would get worked up over their pace.  They wonder what the big rush is.  If you're out here to play golf, relax, slow down, and enjoy the game.  If you have somewhere else you need to be, maybe you shouldn't be on the golf course in the first place.  Seriously, that's exactly what someone told me when I was golfing with him and we were moving at a glacial pace.

From what I've observed, the biggest hurdle to overcome in getting people to play faster is answering the question "Why".  Consider this post from another thread (emphasis added by me).

What's the answer to that question right now?  People talk about how slow play can affect someone's ability to enjoy their round, cause tee time scheduling issues, and whatnot, but those are tough for people to conceptualize.  If you can answer that question by stating, quite clearly, that someone's slow play is literally taking money out of your pocket, you will have gone a long way towards solving the problem, at least from my perspective.

For me the issue is allowing people on the golf course that don't meet the minimum requirement to play. They are slow because they play poorly. The maximum handicap used to be 28 (100 shots on a par 72) and the vast majority playing golf could play to their handicap. Now, golf courses are full of players that cannot even break 120. And that's being generous. Being that bad takes time. Most of these people rip a drive 100 yards, so moving up to a tee box 50 yards closer to the green on a 550-yard par 5 isn't really going to help solve the issue of slow play. On top of their poor play, they also don't know the rules and how to behave on the course. If these people only looked behind them once in a while and allowed faster players to play through there wouldn't be a need for the Forward Tee concept.

[aschroeger]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

For me the issue is allowing people on the golf course that don't meet the minimum requirement to play. They are slow because they play poorly. The maximum handicap used to be 28 (100 shots on a par 72) and the vast majority playing golf could play to their handicap. Now, golf courses are full of players that cannot even break 120. And that's being generous. Being that bad takes time. Most of these people rip a drive 100 yards, so moving up to a tee box 50 yards closer to the green on a 550-yard par 5 isn't really going to help solve the issue of slow play. On top of their poor play, they also don't know the rules and how to behave on the course. If these people only looked behind them once in a while and allowed faster players to play through there wouldn't be a need for the Forward Tee concept.

Maybe that is where the course ranger needs to step up.  If I feel I have a group in front of me playing slower than acceptable, I should be able to phone the club house on my mobile and ask them to handle it.

Now the question is, would a ranger take the time to do this?

I was behind a 4-some of older women Sunday at the CC.  One women in particular could hardly walk.  I swear I thought she needed one of those walking stands.  Her friends would stop the cart and make her walk 50 yards to her ball then walk all the way back..

Slowest round ever

[newtogolf]

I have limited experience on golf courses compared to most of you posting here, but from my limited experience I've noticed that golfers not playing "ready golf" and the use of golf carts are the two largest causes of slow down.  When we use push/pull carts, I go right to my ball and he goes to his.  In cases where we ride, he goes to my ball and waits for me or vice versa, it takes twice as long for each shot, except putting.   We've decided to no longer ride as it keeps the pace of play up, gives us time while walking to check distances on our GPS, and we don't waste all that time walking back and forth to the cart, especially on cart path only days.

[ochmude]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

For me the issue is allowing people on the golf course that don't meet the minimum requirement to play. They are slow because they play poorly. The maximum handicap used to be 28 (100 shots on a par 72) and the vast majority playing golf could play to their handicap. Now, golf courses are full of players that cannot even break 120. And that's being generous. Being that bad takes time. Most of these people rip a drive 100 yards, so moving up to a tee box 50 yards closer to the green on a 550-yard par 5 isn't really going to help solve the issue of slow play. On top of their poor play, they also don't know the rules and how to behave on the course. If these people only looked behind them once in a while and allowed faster players to play through there wouldn't be a need for the Forward Tee concept.

As a matter of personal pride, I make sure that no one waits for me for longer than half a hole or so.  If I see people waiting I'll finish the hole I'm on, tee off at the next hole, then let them play through.  If there are more people waiting, I'll pick up my ball and catch up.  Should I, as a 30 handicap, not be allowed on the course because I don't meet the minimum requirement to play?

[aschroeger]

Originally Posted by ochmude

As a matter of personal pride, I make sure that no one waits for me for longer than half a hole or so.  If I see people waiting I'll finish the hole I'm on, tee off at the next hole, then let them play through.  If there are more people waiting, I'll pick up my ball and catch up.  Should I, as a 30 handicap, not be allowed on the course because I don't meet the minimum requirement to play?

You should be able to play for sure.  I've been hung up behind folks shooting 80.  I dont think ability is the main reason for slow play, its poor etiquette.

Edit:  Even with my horrid 128 on July 4th, my 3-some was done with 18 in 4 hours

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by aschroeger

Maybe that is where the course ranger needs to step up.  If I feel I have a group in front of me playing slower than acceptable, I should be able to phone the club house on my mobile and ask them to handle it.

Now the question is, would a ranger take the time to do this?

I was behind a 4-some of older women Sunday at the CC.  One women in particular could hardly walk.  I swear I thought she needed one of those walking stands.  Her friends would stop the cart and make her walk 50 yards to her ball then walk all the way back..

Slowest round ever

Yes, my club is like that too. And they never allow anybody to play through. The rangers just drive around the course and say hi.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by ochmude

As a matter of personal pride, I make sure that no one waits for me for longer than half a hole or so.  If I see people waiting I'll finish the hole I'm on, tee off at the next hole, then let them play through.  If there are more people waiting, I'll pick up my ball and catch up.  Should I, as a 30 handicap, not be allowed on the course because I don't meet the minimum requirement to play?

I mentioned the 28 handicap thing because that was the minimum requirement not all that long ago. It is now up to 36 which is fine. That is 108 shots and I'm OK with that. However, the majority of people playing off 36 cannot shoot 108 to save their lives. They are nearer 180! That takes time and adds a good hour to an hour and a half to the round.

If you do what you say above, then you are more than doing your part to help slow play. I wish more high handicappers were like you! Unfo, you are in the minority on this one.

[ochmude]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

I mentioned the 28 handicap thing because that was the minimum requirement not all that long ago. It is now up to 36 which is fine. That is 108 shots and I'm OK with that. However, the majority of people playing off 36 cannot shoot 108 to save their lives. They are nearer 180! That takes time and adds a good hour to an hour and a half to the round.

If you do what you say above, then you are more than doing your part to help slow play. I wish more high handicappers were like you! Unfo, you are in the minority on this one.

Ahh, I see.  I misunderstood your post and I apologize for taking it the wrong way.

[xDeathFollowsDaybreakx]

Originally Posted by jshots

Yes... and I actually don't think you understand the point of this.

If you have read anything about the Tee it Forward initiative you will notice that their guidelines are based on  driver distance and not on handicap. The point of this is to get people to have more fun, not to be able to drive every par 4 on their course. Handicap really shouldn't have anything to do with it.

The whole idea of Tee if Forward is that people play courses in a way that they are playing proportionally equivalent distance to the PGA tour based on their driving distance.

I doubt there are many scratch golfers that play the TIPS and don't hit it very far, if such players exist they would have an incredible long iron game. In the rare case that one does exist than I think yes that player could move up a tee and would probably play even better.

YES.. this im agreeing with.. you guys are putting too much thought into this... its about having FUN!!!

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

I mentioned the 28 handicap thing because that was the minimum requirement not all that long ago. It is now up to 36 which is fine. That is 108 shots and I'm OK with that. However, the majority of people playing off 36 cannot shoot 108 to save their lives. They are nearer 180! That takes time and adds a good hour to an hour and a half to the round.

If you do what you say above, then you are more than doing your part to help slow play. I wish more high handicappers were like you! Unfo, you are in the minority on this one.

No backsies. Taking more shots is slower than taking fewer. It just is.

[aschroeger]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

No backsies. Taking more shots is slower than taking fewer. It just is.

I immediately got the visual of the old couple golfing in Caddyshack.. You know, where the woman knocks it in the pond singing Weeeeeeeeee!!!!!

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

No backsies. Taking more shots is slower than taking fewer. It just is.

All I'm saying is that if you can double bogey or better every hole that's fine, you meet the minimum requirement to play on a big course. The moment you haven't holed your putt or approach shot for double bogey, you should pick up and go to the next tee. 108 is not a bad standard from what I've seen and takes quite a few months, if not a year, to get to. Unfortunately, rounds of 5-5.5 hours are due to a good 75% of the golfers taking way in excess of 120 shots. These golfers have gone straight from the golf shop to the first tee with their new clubs without first doing the time on the range. Slow play has crept up on us as the game of golf has become more popular and clubs have been incapable of tackling the problem adequately.

[aschroeger]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

All I'm saying is that if you can double bogey or better every hole that's fine, you meet the minimum requirement to play on a big course. The moment you haven't holed your putt or approach shot for double bogey, you should pick up and go to the next tee. 108 is not a bad standard from what I've seen and takes quite a few months, if not a year, to get to. Unfortunately, rounds of 5-5.5 hours are due to a good 75% of the golfers taking way in excess of 120 shots. These golfers have gone straight from the golf shop to the first tee with their new clubs without first doing the time on the range. Slow play has crept up on us as the game of golf has become more popular and clubs have been incapable of tackling the problem adequately.

But, if those doub, trip bogeys and +4's happen because of putting, you're really not exceeding time.  Time is lost 40 yards off the side of the fairway, in the farmers field.  Or by those golfers who insist on spending 5-10 minutes fishing balls out of the river with there 30 foot ball retrievers.

You can 3-4 put all day and it only adds a few minutes.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Nope, he's in the majority. I tried to tell you this. Because I was so convinced about this issue, I decided to do some research today as you recommended. I asked 20 random members of my club if they would consider playing further forward for a discount (i.e. the small discounts you mention above).

Look, others have already responded to you about this, but it's not my opinion. Small discounts matter. You're in the minority. Maybe it's because you live amongst a bunch of lying cheats in Spain, I don't know... but if someone heard "save $5" they'd listen. The facts of the matter are that a majority of people in the U.S. will take the time to save a few dollars on a hundred dollar purchase. It's not an opinion.

I, also, don't care what 20 guys at your club say, and I don't really care about golf in Spain. This is a PGA/USGA initiative, and it's aimed at golf courses in the U.S. That's all I'm talking about.

Originally Posted by shades9323

I like the ideas. I have a question on this quote though.  Are you going to make all players in the group play from the same tees?

No idea. If it's 2/2, they can split up that way. Or each player can have a flag - one on each side of the cart. I suspect 90% of the time or more everyone plays the same tees. I rarely see players using different tees unless it's a man and his wife or a parent/child type of situation (and even then, sometimes the parents will play up or the kids will just "tee" it in the fairway as their starting location).

Originally Posted by Harmonious

People who are ready to play, regardless of their ability, can play even the longest tees faster than those bozos playing from the shortest tees.

Sure, but that's not really the point here. We did a "slow play week" a year or two ago. Education and people simply playing faster is the long-term solution. This is, potentially, a short-term band-aid.

Originally Posted by jamo

It's one thing to give people discounts for playing quickly, because then if the group in front of you is slow, so what? Oh no, you actually have to pay for drinks this time. But when you make people pay more, just because the group in front of them is slow that might be the point where you get angry customers.

Yep.

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Now, golf courses are full of players that cannot even break 120. And that's being generous.

Again, this discussion isn't about Spain. Golf courses here are not "full of players that cannot even break 120." Or 180, like you said elsewhere.