Is golf obnoxious?

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by trackster

Those parks are not man made that was what was there on the land.  That is like saying the earth is 70% water that could be used for something more useful.  Thats how it was.  A golf course took land and made it into a golf course.  One is not disturbing the land and one is turning the land into something else.

Before there was a golf course on some piece of land, the land was not some "formless void" like in Genesis. There were already trees, grass, probably a creek or a pond or two, etc. Yeah, "man" came in and mowed some grass, put in 18 holes in the dirt, and charged people for the use - but what you see is pretty much "what was there on the land". And by the same token, national parks are far from undisturbed: Think paved paths and roads, concession stands, hotels, etc. So I still think that if you have a problem with golf courses, you should have a problem with national parks as well. (And smaller city parks for that matter - it's the same principle - cording off land for people's enjoyment... and while you may think it's free, as someone pointed out you're paying for it with your tax dollars.

Originally Posted by trackster

Again I haven't argued anything...  I presented what someone said, I saw it from their point of view and presented what I thought.

And by presenting what you thought, and defending what someone else said, you *are* in fact making arguments. Very unsound arguments.

Originally Posted by trackster

Then proceeded to tell people that they haven't provided a single thing that has been of relevance.

Ummm, ok. Nice chatting with you.

[carpediem4300]

what a tool

[Gioguy21]

Originally Posted by trackster

Ok I don't even know what to say to you people anymore .

Those parks are not man made that was what was there on the land.  That is like saying the earth is 70% water that could be used for something more useful.  Thats how it was.  A golf course took land and made it into a golf course.  One is not disturbing the land and one is turning the land into something else.

Again I haven't argued anything so I don't see how you are poking holes in what I have said.  I presented what someone said, I saw it from their point of view and presented what I thought.  Then proceeded to tell people that they haven't provided a single thing that has been of relevance.  A finger has been pointed at cars, farmers, national parks.  Seriously people, national parks?

I don't think I made any leaps.  I said golf takes up alot of space for not providing a necessary service. You can say that farmland takes up way more, but alas food is a necessity.

I came into this siding on golf isn't obnoxious but after hearing the responses here and watching people point the finger at some thing else.   I think this responses answer this question pretty easily.

since reading your trolling posts, (my post is that of opinion, and includes no facts, nor links to facts) i've come to the conclusion that you my friend are confused, both logically and mentally. is golf obnoxious...to some people yes (in your case) and others no. is golf a waste of land? i'd bet those who make a living by being a greenskeeper (who went to colleges, more than likely) would refute you. could the land be used for something else? here's my view: any and all land could be used for a greater purpose...the best part about america: you can give the middle finger to someone else who has a different view than you...if you own it, you can do what you want with it (within the laws and constitution).  as far as i'm concerned...we weren't concerned about the ability to get food on a day to day basis...there's PLENTY OF LAND in the united states that's still undeveloped...until we as the population can't find food anymore and all other lands have been harvested...why have this argument?


trackster, according to you, i'm obnoxious in the following ways:
1) i live in a house
2) i play golf
3) i've visted a place where i had to pay for amusement on someone elses land

4) i drive a sports car and not an economy, basic level vehicle


so trackster, with a smile on my face, i give you...the best part of america :)

[ND Fan]

We really don't need more food or more farms currently.

100 million pounds of produce is thrown away daily.

[ghalfaire]

I grew up on a family agriculture business (ranch/farm).  So I'll tell you that today in America farming isn't a viable business unless you can inherit it.  If you have to take out a loan to begin the business you'll fail.  The return on investment for farming in the USA  won't pay the interest on the loan let alone the principal.  And that folks is why family farms are in decline in the USA and have been for decades.  You can make more money (probably work less too) getting a job in town.  Golf course are more productive in terms of generating income and jobs than are farms so are a better use of the land.  Like most things we import a lot of our food from places with lower standards of living (read low wages), less regulations, and less concern with the environment. Welcome to the 21st Century.

[x129]

Land is not the reason we don't have more orphanages, hospitals, homeless shelters or just about anything.  Money (and the fact that people don't want homeless shelters. Read about the protests from neighbors every time someone wants to build one) is. Getting rid of a golf course is not going to magically create money for anything else.

Originally Posted by trackster

Again Farmland is not the main topic here I just said that as an alternative , I could have said it could be made into an orphanage, a hospital, a homeless shelter.  Would you argue against those things?

[CyclistOK]

This is a stupid discussion. Tell me, who gets to decide what is arbitrarily better for society? Obviously sports facilities of anykind could be demolished and turned into farmland or housing. Commercial districts? We could get rid of all of those if we all used the Internet or had the government supply us with goods. Schools? Online learning for all grades is a growing business... Roads? There are much more efficient ways to build roads in the city... Wouldn't it be great to live in a society like that? Fact is there is alot of land in America and we needed the land for farming the price of food would go up and that use of land would start to compete with the use of land for golf. If we needed more housing (lol that sounds so stupid consider the current housing market) then housing prices would start to compete with the use of land for golf. On a side note I payed $8 to play Keeton Park golf course in Dallas yesterday. I don't know how they make money off that. Plus I see all sorts of people come and putt and chip for free there then leave so it's not like the course doesn't provide some free services...

[Yanks Fan]

Quote:

Ok I don't even know what to say to you people anymore .

Those parks are not man made that was what was there on the land.  That is like saying the earth is 70% water that could be used for something more useful.  Thats how it was.  A golf course took land and made it into a golf course.  One is not disturbing the land and one is turning the land into something else.

Again I haven't argued anything so I don't see how you are poking holes in what I have said.  I presented what someone said, I saw it from their point of view and presented what I thought.  Then proceeded to tell people that they haven't provided a single thing that has been of relevance.  A finger has been pointed at cars, farmers, national parks.  Seriously people, national parks?

I don't think I made any leaps.  I said golf takes up alot of space for not providing a necessary service. You can say that farmland takes up way more, but alas food is a necessity.

I came into this siding on golf isn't obnoxious but after hearing the responses here and watching people point the finger at some thing else.   I think this responses answer this question pretty easily.

I'm not going to lie, I didn't read half the thread. With that said, a golf course really doesn't take up that much space in the grand scheme of things. I'm going strictly off my area (DC metro area) with my response. We have hospitals, parks, homeless shelters, and whatever else you mentioned should take it's place and we still have room for golf courses; so does every area in the US. It's not like we are hurting for space or bumping elbows with our neighbors when we walk out of the door. The country's foundation is built around capitalism. The idea of private ownership where someone can start damn near any business they want to staying inside of regulations.  My home course is built on an old farm actually. The cart barn is part of the old farm. There are 20 other farms within a 10 minute drive of the course so saying that a golf course takes away valuable space from farms or something else more publically usable is just simply not correct. With that said, my course also has a public park right across the street so there goes that. For the PETA people, golf courses even provide great spots for animals to live. Most golf courses incorporate housing developments into the design of the course these days so again, saying courses take away from land that can be used for homes is just flat wrong.

Hell, Disney takes up a ton of space and isn't necessary. Let's get rid of it. While we're at it, let's get rid of The Capitol Building in DC as well. The politicians certainly aren't doing anything in it....You can't get rid of unnecessary things, it's what America is built on.

Please don't get rid of Disney. I like the area and the golf courses ;)

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Yanks Fan

For the PETA people, golf courses even provide great spots for animals to live.

Good point, and it reminds me of a situation currently going on in Pacifica, just south of San Francisco. Some environmentalists there want to close the Sharp Park golf course because they say its existence is endangering the California red legged frog and the San Francisco garter snake. It turns out that those are not indigenous to the area - they only arrived *after* the golf course was built, since it turned a salt water estuary into a fresh water habitat, and the frogs and snakes need fresh water. (See http://sharppark.savegolf.net/)

There are definitely a lot of people out there failing to think things through.

[caniac6]

Golf is a fun diversion from real life. I see a lot of bird and animal species using the ponds and wetlands the course created when it was built. Early in the morning a lot of people use the cart paths to run or walk their dogs. A fair ammount of people are employed by golf courses. I'm glad I live in a country that has enough land to provide golf courses, parkland, and enough farmland to grow surplus ammounts of food. If the origional poster feels guilty about being a golfer, I suggest that he quit. As for me, I am going to enjoy the hell out of playing.

[trackster]

Ok my last post on this topic.

I have seen some good arguments here and I have seen some extremely poorly thought out arguments (some of them my own)

Here is just a recap of what I think

Good arguments made for Golf Being Obnoxious.

1.  As was brought up before the amount of land being taken up.  It is an extreme amount when you think of it.

2.  We mostly all have our handicap in our signature (whether to show it off or not) and we sometimes judge a poster by that same number.  I am part of a Track forum and I don't go around with my 100 meter dash time showing.  Golf is also one of the only sports where you can get rewarded for being you (scores adjusted for handicaps).

3.  We drive around in golf carts (some of them can get a bit showy).

4.  Beer is allowed (sometimes encouraged) while you golf.  I think we all know a drunken golfer story.

5.  A course charging 500 (sometimes even more) dollars for a round is in my opinion is ridiculous.  Some one might not think it is ridiculous but that is my opinion.

(I'm sure there is more)

Good arguments for Golf not being Obnoxious.

1.  This was touched on briefly in a previous post.  Golf is no longer just a game.  It is an industry.  So many people are employed with something related to golf.  Whether it be club technologies, teaching pro, greens keeper, or any other job they are all earning a career.

2.  If the land for golf was changed was used for something else there is no proof that the land would become something better.  I also agree with this, but there is the off chance that it could provide a useful necessary service.  But it also could not.

3.  Golf has been around a long time.  The face of the game might be changing but its history makes it elite.  If it comes across as obnoxious so be it.  It has history to back up its actions.

4.  There are cheap courses too.  These courses as I have expressed before make money off of heavy trafficking to there place.  And as in reason number 1 they are a business just trying to make money.

(I'm sure there is more)

Poor argumentative reasons I have read in this topic.

1.  Any argument that pointed a finger at something else.  Hunting, cars, houses, churches, and even Universities would said to be just as bad.  If I go to the park and throw down an empty can, and the guy next to me throws down an empty 6 pack, does that mean that I did not litter?  No we are both litterers.

2.  Any one trying to bash farming and its practices.  I don't really want to dive into this but they are making a living and providing a necessary service.  Farming is hard, many its my fault that they were brought up as the alternative.

Best resoning that i have read in this topic.

1.  The industry aspect of golf and how it is as much a business as anything else.

2.  There is 900 million acres of farmland and only 4 million acres of golf land (roughly).  While those 4 million acres could help they aren't ending world hunger.

Things that just downright made me mad in this topic.

1.  People who chopped up what i said and then quoted it.  This is not cool.  You discredit yourself when you do this.  If you are going to quote some one quote the whole post and not just one sentence of an entire paragraph that fits your point.  Especially when the rest of the paragraph would disprove your logic.

2.  People who take what other posters say and try to credit it as coming from one source.  I never brought up the housing situation, or the car situation.  Yet in a recent post someone said by your logic I can't live in a house or own an expensive car.  I was actually defending the housing and car situation, saying housing is more important, and cars are built and sold for profit margins.  But I guess if you don't read the whole topic you would never know.

3.  The trolling comments.  I made this topic in a golf forum because I knew I would get golf related responses, not "BURN DOWN THE COURSE HUAHHH" like I could get on a website not related to golf.  People got a little defensive and so be it.

FInally what I think

Golf is awesome I love to play.  It takes up a lot of land but I can be selfish and be ok with it taking up as much land as it needs.  I can be obnoxious at times.  I've yelled after sinking a 30 foot birdie putt.  And if I hit a monster drive way past my friend I'll make sure he sees where my ball landed.  Watch a Jack Hamm video and you will see how golf can be obnoxious.  You can say that he doesn't represent the game.  But he's a golfer and golfers represent golf.  You get obnoxious people in every sport.   I don't think any one should point a finger at any other activity like a university,  But just be ok with how golf is.

[Gioguy21]

Originally Posted by trackster

FInally what I think

Golf is awesome I love to play.  It takes up a lot of land but I can be selfish and be ok with it taking up as much land as it needs.  I can be obnoxious at times.  I've yelled after sinking a 30 foot birdie putt.  And if I hit a monster drive way past my friend I'll make sure he sees where my ball landed.  Watch a Jack Hamm video and you will see how golf can be obnoxious.  You can say that he doesn't represent the game.  But he's a golfer and golfers represent golf.  You get obnoxious people in every sport.   I don't think any one should point a finger at any other activity like a university,  But just be ok with how golf is.

you've made the point that YOU are obnoxious. not the game that is golf.

[B-Con]

Again Farmland is not the main topic here I just said that as an alternative , I could have said it could be made into an orphanage, a hospital, a homeless shelter.  Would you argue against those things?

We have absolutely no shortage of land in this country, and you're saying that we shouldn't build a golf course because the land could be used for something else? Just drive a mile in any direction and build it there, where they can't even see the golf course. The problem with building those things has absolutely nothing to do with space. It's really simple: Someone bought the land and tries to make a profit from it while providing a service for what is often a reasonable fee. Who cares how much space it takes up? Who cares how much it costs to play? There's plenty of space available for all the other things we need. I don't get why you would even blink twice about the space that they use, because it's practically irrelevant. If golf courses disappeared overnight, I guarantee you that they wouldn't instantly be filled in with things that needed to be there but couldn't be. Instead, someone else would simply take the land and try to make money off it in a different way. The idea of "I don't like how much they're using or how much money they're dealing with" is always silly because it's based on "it doesn't seem right". If they aren't harming anyone, let them be, it isn't about what "seems right". Any argument against them has to center around what harm they do. Space-wise they're not harming anyone. Financially they're not harming anyone. We need real arguments. Things like water consumption are at least a step in the right direction, assuming that their unused water could go to good elsewhere.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by trackster

Things that just downright made me mad in this topic.

1.  People who chopped up what i said and then quoted it.  This is not cool.  You discredit yourself when you do this.  If you are going to quote some one quote the whole post and not just one sentence of an entire paragraph that fits your point.  Especially when the rest of the paragraph would disprove your logic.

It's a common practice to "chop up" quotes so they can be responded to one at a time. It's also a common practice to quote only those remarks one is responding to - not every person has the time or inclination to respond to every single sentence you've written.

Please show me one example where you were quoted out of context, or where the meaning of your words was changed.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

It's a common practice to "chop up" quotes so they can be responded to one at a time. It's also a common practice to quote only those remarks one is responding to - not every person has the time or inclination to respond to every single sentence you've written.

Please show me one example where you were quoted out of context, or where the meaning of your words was changed.

It is very common here. It's also irritating and disrespectful. One might even say, it's obnoxious.

[mdl]

The taking up land argument just seems kind of silly to me.  There's all kinds of things that take up lots of land to provide some service that not everyone wants to take advantage of.  Maybe golf courses take up more than many things you could compare it to, but it just seems a weak argument.  We make plenty of food in this country (we're one of the largest food exporters I believe), and if there were other activities that could make more money, either by doing something more people are willing to pay for or charging more money for the same number of customers or whatever, then there would just be less golf courses.

The environmental argument is much stronger.  I live in LA and get pissy at people with huge grass lawns since it seems such a waste of water when we have none to spare in SoCal, and I've seen tons of people with spectacularly beautiful yards where I'd love to have a BBQ or whatever that are done with native plants that require little or no watering.  But that's super hypocritical cause I love golf and play all the time and even with improvements in course management cutting down on water usage tons and tons of water is used to keep up all the golf courses in the desert southwest, and you could definitely argue that that's "obnoxious", or maybe rather irresponsible.  But what can I say, my love of golf forces me to accept hypocritical views!

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

It is very common here. It's also irritating and disrespectful. One might even say, it's obnoxious.

You've accused me of this before Sean, and I still don't understand your objection.

(Unless you're joking again - sometimes I can't tell.)

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

You've accused me of this before Sean, and I still don't understand your objection.

(Unless you're joking again - sometimes I can't tell.)

I'll have to take your word for it, but since I abhor the practice, I've taken a few people to task for it.