Lag - Too Much of a Good Thing

[iacas]

Here's an image.

On the left, in red , I've drawn dots every few frames to show, effectively, the path my left thumbnail takes through the downswing from about P6 to P8. On the right, in green , I've shown my clubhead (sweet spot) path. I've drawn some other lines and things I'll talk about as well.

Lately, there's been talk by some former Golfing Machine guys that this point (kind of - but I'm not going to get into the details) reaches its low point before the golf club does.

To that, I simply say this: duh. I'm by no means a "Golfing Machine Literalist" (as they derogatorily refer to some people), but in virtually all good golf swings the clubhead reaches low point near to a point "beneath the left shoulder." If The Golfing Machine says that the hands reach low point there, too, then it's wrong.

The hands, common sense will tell you, will reach low point directly beneath their center of rotation. Where's that? The spine, between the shoulder blades. You'll see this marked with a dot in the image above (left). I've drawn an arrow down from there and, go figure, it lines up with the low point of the hands.

If anyone has been taught that the hands actually go down, out, and forward all the way to or even beyond impact , then it strikes me as common sense that they're wrong. If nothing else, consider the fact that the left shoulder is rising throughout the downswing. How could low point of the hands be beneath the left shoulder? It can't.

The club's low point can vary, and does quite dramatically in the swings of duffers. They flip - their left wrist breaks down and begins cupping or dorsiflexing before they've hit the ball or reached low point. They have negative shaft lean at impact - a shaft that leans backwards away from the target. They've prematurely lengthened the left-shoulder-to-clubhead lever. The radius from the shoulder to the clubhead is shortening as the clubhead passes beneath the left shoulder.

Okay, so what's this about?

The recent discussions have centered on how it's possible to have "too much lag." It's "been discovered" (I use that term loosely, since many people already knew this) that the hands reach low point sooner, and that you should not be taught to keep the hands driving down, out, and forward to or through impact.

Great. Perfect advice for someone who has too much shaft lean . Have you seen that guy? I've seen him once or twice. Virtually everyone else needs more shaft lean. They have negative shaft lean or a degree or two. Pros have less than many people think, but it's always roughly the same amount and it's always within a reasonable range. More with the short clubs, less with the long clubs, and virtually always positive (some might have negative shaft lean on teed balls, for example).

The truth is that virtually nobody teaches that the right forearm flying wedge should be maintained or that the flat left wrist should be maintained for long periods. The flat left wrist is a moment in time - ideally right around impact or just afterwards. To keep too much right forearm flying wedge is to fail to take advantage of the fifth power accumulator !

Consider this: when you slap someone across the face, do you hinge your wrist back and then just try to move your forearm as fast as possible, or do you quickly unhinge your wrist as your forearm approaches the cheek of the smackee? If you have any instincts at all, it's to do the latter. The right wrist is unhinging as you come into impact. The left wrist is going from cocked and rolled (or whatever the terms are - feeling a bit lazy at the moment) to less cocked and less rolled, but it's also possibly going into a more dorsiflexed position - after impact - but it's also adding speed to the clubhead.

Just as you wouldn't slap someone (if your intent is to really leave a good red mark) without unhinging your wrist, you don't hit the golf ball hard by maintaining the same flying wedge in the right forearm. It's coming out continually - it's being "thrown" - which affects the low point of the hands, the low point of the club, and more.

To the 99.6% of golfers who have too little shaft lean, they throw #5 too quickly (among other things - weight might not be far enough forward, etc.). These golfers might need to feel that their hands continue to go down, out, and forward longer. Or, preferably, they need to be taught how to delay the clubhead's low point so that they can get a little shaft lean. Not a lot - but a little goes a long way.

The questions should not be: what are the hands doing? Is the shaft is rotating around a point near the left thumb? The question should be: "can you teach this?" And I believe the answer is no: it's simply an observation, and one that you could have made without looking at 3D data or swing videos, but simply understanding basic geometry. The hands reaching low point somewhere near the right thigh (or beneath the midpoint of the shoulders) is a result of this basic geometry. The clubhead reaching low point afterwards is the result of other things in your swing, and holding just enough lag and properly timing its throw-out .

I've included this video in a few threads here. I like it, and I think 99.6% of golfers can learn from it.

Do you actually want to continue to have driving pressure (#3 PP) through impact? No way. It's not an efficient, optimal swing. Lynn Blake is correct: there are a lot of good "throwers" of the golf club out there. As in virtually everyone on the PGA Tour for a normal, full-swing type shot.

It doesn't take a scientist to tell you that.

Then again, I didn't teach max trigger delay for 20+ years and dig myself a big ol' hole. :-D

[mchepp]

Good post. What are your thoughts then of the book from Bobby Clampett "Impact Zone"? Where he outlines an aiming point ahead of the ball where a golfer should "aim the hands".

[jamo]

The first thing I thought when I saw the "former Golfing Machine guys'" picture illustrating their point was "duh." Seemed pretty obvious to me. But when your philosophy on the golf swing is being against everything, the obvious must not seem so obvious.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mchepp

Good post. What are your thoughts then of the book from Bobby Clampett "Impact Zone"? Where he outlines an aiming point ahead of the ball where a golfer should "aim the hands".

- I think Bobby's book is "okay" because, again, 99.6% of golfers have no shaft lean at impact.

- I think Bobby knows darn well the hands (or butt of the club, or #3PP) don't travel in a straight line.

- I don't necessarily like the aiming point idea, because as Richie says, it's "teaching mechanics through feel" rather than the other way around, though it's not quite as much "mechanics through feel" as a lot of other things. That said, the "aiming point" idea has worked for some of our students. They needed to "hold on" a little longer before they "throw" out the wedge a little, and simply looking more forward of the golf ball delays their "throw-out."

I think Bobby's own swing would demonstrate something different from what he truly believes happens, too. But again, for 99.6% of people...

[saevel25]

So is the flying wedge the only drill to practice the right concept of the impact conditions? are there other drills to produce the correct motion through impact?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by saevel25

So is the flying wedge the only drill to practice the right concept of the impact conditions? are there other drills to produce the correct motion through impact?

The right forearm flying wedge is a condition, not a drill. It's the bend in the back of the right wrist, basically.

You'll note that even in my "hips forward, hit and stop" video the wedge comes out and the clubhead is "thrown" a little bit:

BUT in that drill there's still a little bit more wedge than in a faster, fuller swing, so it's still effective at training the delay of the throwing or "less" throwing for people who flip.

[newtogolf]

Thanks for the video of the drill.  I notice at about 1:03 you appear to set your wrists before taking your backswing.  Is that part of your normal swing,sequence or is that part of the drill?

Originally Posted by iacas

The right forearm flying wedge is a condition, not a drill. It's the bend in the back of the right wrist, basically.

You'll note that even in my "hips forward, hit and stop" video the wedge comes out and the clubhead is "thrown" a little bit:

BUT in that drill there's still a little bit more wedge than in a faster, fuller swing, so it's still effective at training the delay of the throwing or "less" throwing for people who flip.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Thanks for the video of the drill.  I notice at about 1:03 you appear to set your wrists before taking your backswing.  Is that part of your normal swing,sequence or is that part of the drill?

It's just a little forward press. Some do it in their swings. I do it in pitches and chips, not so much in full swings. Lately I've done more of a wrist cock (clubhead goes up, not handle forward) instead.

Good question, but not quite the topic here. :-)

[Deryck Griffith]

This is a very informative post.  Thank you for sharing.

What are you opinions of a swing like Serio Garcia which has a tremendous amount of lag?  Obviosuly he's a pro and the basis of your post is geared around the amatuer but nonetheless, I am just curious on your opinion regarding his swing.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith

What are you opinions of a swing like Serio Garcia which has a tremendous amount of lag?  Obviosuly he's a pro and the basis of your post is geared around the amatuer but nonetheless, I am just curious on your opinion regarding his swing.

He still does this. He still uses what we've called PA5. He's just able to do it much later and still line the club up.

Consider what he'd look like if he actually "held" his lag:

[Deryck Griffith]

Originally Posted by iacas

He still does this. He still uses what we've called PA5. He's just able to do it much later and still line the club up.

Consider what he'd look like if he actually "held" his lag:

Very interesting and goes to prove your point even more.  The amount of lag Sergio creates is probably more than most players that exist (Lucas Glover also comes to mind, Jaime Sadlowski does as well) and even they "don't create too much lag" as these former golfing machine people you mentioned are suggesting.

Being that this has been proven to be the case, how the heck or where can any of us find an everyday amateur with anything remoletly close to this problem?

Great Post...

[bunkerputt]

Exactly.  Any ball striking round I have where I hit better than 85% GIR and 10 or more drives over 300, I always feel like I'm hinging to the top and then dropping the club onto the ball like a hammer onto a nail, slowing down after impact.  The "drive" just gets your body into contortions.  You have to use the arms to hit the golf ball.  I like watching the Mike Austin videos because he's a great thrower with a nice rhythm to watch.  Not sure exactly where "throwing" became a bad thing.  I think people forgot to distinguish "throwing from the top" from "throwing at the ball".  There's a world of difference.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

I think people forgot to distinguish "throwing from the top" from "throwing at the ball".  There's a world of difference.

I like the way you put that.

The "timing" of the throw is important, and lest people say "but you like to say there's no timing in the golf swing," that's not really true. There's timing all throughout the golf swing, but if you're thinking of it you're doing it wrong. Simply add "more" or "less" of things and the "timing" will shake out.

[saevel25]

i agree, my best ball striking comes when i feel like i hold the hinge in the right wrist, into impact. I never had issue with the to much lag, so i really do release well into the ball  anyways. So my feeling is trying to hold as much lag as possible.

[WUTiger]

Swing "lag" was a hot topic on the practice range this summer. I discussed it with two pros from vastly different teaching camps: one used Manuel de la Torre methods, and the other was Stack-n-Tilt. Both said lots of golfers were messing up their swings by trying to create artificial lag.

Quote:

... There's timing all throughout the golf swing, but if you're thinking of it you're doing it wrong. Simply add "more" or "less" of things and the "timing" will shake out.

I seem to do better when I do things to enable natural lag, rather than trying to directly create artificial lag:

• I sometimes have trouble with over the top, or spinning out. It goes away if I feel a "hand drop" on my downswing, which seems to increase lag.
• The Stack-n-Tilt guy suggested I cock my wrists at about waist level on my backswing. This has led to a more consistent hand position at the top, and less overswinging... and a better chance of the "hand drop" feeling on downswing.

[iacas]

Here's a picture I think people should find interesting.

Is this a flip? No. The club is inline at impact (red dot, red line). If I were to instead arrive at impact like the image on the right, then I might get the same distance (due to the club de-lofting) but my clubhead will not be moving as quickly as it could if I allowed it to release a bit more "lag."

I'll leave it at that. I think the lines on the left are somewhat self explanatory. :-)

[mchepp]

Originally Posted by iacas

my clubhead will not be moving as quickly as it could if I allowed it to release a bit more "lag."

Of course I believe you but readings from some sort of swing speed monitor, trackman something like that showing the swing speed difference would definitely prove your point.

Not a knock but food for thought.

[Domenic]

Like me, it can hit the ball excessively low...