My Swing (Hogan Project)

[Hogan Project]

3wood. Back focused in the takeaway. I've been wandering around the Nile for the past week. Playing around with lots of drills. Gotta get back on track. The takeaway is improving, but still not where I want it to be.

0:45 Right shoulder still easing itself up. I understand why this is happening now, just gotta work on it.

1:50 Club plane is different. Hogan's is turned down to line more. His wrists have hinged differently than mine. If I get to the top with less of a cupped left wrist, my club is right in the area as his. Gonna stay with the cupped wrist for now, but will learn both versions later.

During the takeaway, the top of my head is moving towards the target. Looks and feels kind of stack-n-tilty. Next phase of the takeaway is to cure these misses.

[newtogolf]

I'm a big fan of Hogan and while your project is interesting it's not likely to produce the results you're hoping for.  You can't "see" everything a golfer does with your eyes.  Videos of him aren't slow enough for you to see every minute move he makes with his body and hands throughout the swing.  You can take some measurements to compare your address angles and club angles throughout the swing but that doesn't mean you'll see the same results.

Remember Hogans dominant hand was his left, he learned to golf righty because those were the only clubs he could find and afford.  It's also likely his left eye was dominant which changes things if you're not left hand and eye dominant.  Hogan did things with his wrist before and after the accident which are going to be difficult to mimic from poor quality video.

I'm not sure if your ultimate goal is to swing like Hogan for the sake of swinging like him or to become a better golfer but I wish you luck.

[Shorty]

I have to say that I've read some strange stuff in my time, but this is getting close to the weirdest.

All I'm seeing in the videos is a person aping Hogan's clothing.

I don't understand the purpose of the exercise.

I don't undersatnd why someone would try to recreate another person's swing.

What I understand even less is how someone can get overly technical about something and point to a few still shots where angles and and lines are relatively close and believe that it actually means something. You could probably overlay some images of Furyk over Hogan's and see similiarities. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Additionally, the sort of slavish adulation of someone who was by virtually all accounts a thoroughly unpleasant man, even to the point of copying his clothing strikes me as very, very odd.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Shorty

I have to say that I've read some strange stuff in my time, but this is getting close to the weirdest.

All I'm seeing in the videos is a person aping Hogan's clothing.

I don't understand the purpose of the exercise.

I don't undersatnd why someone would try to recreate another person's swing.

What I understand even less is how someone can get overly technical about something and point to a few still shots where angles and and lines are relatively close and believe that it actually means something. You could probably overlay some images of Furyk over Hogan's and see similiarities. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Additionally, the sort of slavish adulation of someone who was by virtually all accounts a thoroughly unpleasant man, even to the point of copying his clothing strikes me as very, very odd.

Sure, there isn't enough clubhead speed to break a pane of stage glass, but this is just the beginning, and he's rocking that backswing. He may also have to crash his car and go through rehab, just like Ben Hogan did.

[Hogan Project]

Quote:

I'm a big fan of Hogan and while your project is interesting it's not likely to produce the results you're hoping for.  You can't "see" everything a golfer does with your eyes.  Videos of him aren't slow enough for you to see every minute move he makes with his body and hands throughout the swing.  You can take some measurements to compare your address angles and club angles throughout the swing but that doesn't mean you'll see the same results.

Remember Hogans dominant hand was his left, he learned to golf righty because those were the only clubs he could find and afford.  It's also likely his left eye was dominant which changes things if you're not left hand and eye dominant.  Hogan did things with his wrist before and after the accident which are going to be difficult to mimic from poor quality video.

I'm not sure if your ultimate goal is to swing like Hogan for the sake of swinging like him or to become a better golfer but I wish you luck.

Thanks for the interest newtogolf. Your points are completely understood, respected, and well-taken. This is a debate that I've had to argue many times since taking on this "impossible" task. The only direct result I am looking to get is to match Hogan's movements, or the swing itself. The address, the waggle, the takeaway, the cupped left wrist, the transition, the open left hip, the angle-hinged impact, the left shoulder pulling everything around, and the high finish. All of this can be accomplished with the imperfect Hogan videos floating around on youtube, as well as the many still shots. It can also be accomplished without a ball. Once the swing is part of muscle-memory and impressioned into my subconscious, and the swing-path/impact areas are consistent, I can use high-speed video to see exactly where to place the ball.

I have no idea of what Hogan's physical conditions and ailments were. Left eye dominant, right thumb dominant.....heavy shaft......flat clubs...who knows?? Once I match the movement, I'll let you know what my physical conditions/positions are, then you can let me know if what I feel matches what Hogan said.

An analogy I like to use is Elvis and Michael Jackson; known for their cool dance moves. Find yourself a kid sitting on a couch staring at the television. Give him a DVD of Elvis in Jailhouse Roc, or Michael in Thriller. After they've watched it enough times and practiced it a little, they have the amazing abillty to actually do these dances. No class, no book. no instructor. If someone told them that Elvis had a slipped disk when he made the Jailhouse rock video, and Michael had extra "meds" while doing the dance in Billie Jean, they wouldn't care one bit. They would just get up and start imitating what they saw. They probably won't go out and sell a million records, but they can easily match both these superstars dance moves.

My direct goal is to swing like Hogan....that's it....nothing else. The indirect and inevitable result will be overall ballstriking and game improvement. My hypothesis is based on the logic of repetitive movement and incremental progression.

[Hogan Project]

Originally Posted by Shorty

I have to say that I've read some strange stuff in my time, but this is getting close to the weirdest.

All I'm seeing in the videos is a person aping Hogan's clothing.

I don't understand the purpose of the exercise.

I don't undersatnd why someone would try to recreate another person's swing.

What I understand even less is how someone can get overly technical about something and point to a few still shots where angles and and lines are relatively close and believe that it actually means something. You could probably overlay some images of Furyk over Hogan's and see similiarities. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Additionally, the sort of slavish adulation of someone who was by virtually all accounts a thoroughly unpleasant man, even to the point of copying his clothing strikes me as very, very odd.

Lol......I understand your confusion and lack of understanding. This is a PhD dissertation in success duplication. Also, I took a look at Furyk vs Hogan and found no similiarities. I have no idea what type of person Hogan was or how unpleasant he was. Only purpose of this exercise is to see if it is possible, or see how long it takes to duplicate the impossibe.

Also, besides the dissertation, after many discussions on the topic of "best ball striker ever to play the game," I got interested. I got reeeeealy interested when someone said that nobody will ever come close to matching that.

Purpose of matching clothing makes it easier to see positional differences when comparing videos.

[newtogolf]

The logic is flawed, a dance is in itself the end result.  If you copy someones dance steps you will appear to dance like them.    Moon-walking is moon-walking, MJ might do it better but if you create the illusion the goal is met.  A golf swing consists of a series of body movements with the goal being to hit a golf ball properly.  You can watch all the video you want and even if you get your hips, arms and head to align with his videos there's no guarantee that you'll hit a golf ball like he did because his swing was personal to him, his height, physique, flexibility, strength, hand/eye domination, grip, etc.  You can't see everything he's doing, you just think you can.

Originally Posted by Hogan Project

An analogy I like to use is Elvis and Michael Jackson; known for their cool dance moves. Find yourself a kid sitting on a couch staring at the television. Give him a DVD of Elvis in Jailhouse Roc, or Michael in Thriller. After they've watched it enough times and practiced it a little, they have the amazing abillty to actually do these dances. No class, no book. no instructor. If someone told them that Elvis had a slipped disk when he made the Jailhouse rock video, and Michael had extra "meds" while doing the dance in Billie Jean, they wouldn't care one bit. They would just get up and start imitating what they saw. They probably won't go out and sell a million records, but they can easily match both these superstars dance moves.

My direct goal is to swing like Hogan....that's it....nothing else. The indirect and inevitable result will be overall ballstriking and game improvement. My hypothesis is based on the logic of repetitive movement and incremental progression.

[newtogolf]

I've read different accounts of his demeanor, to most he probably appeared unpleasant, but guys like Demarat seemed to like him.  I thought it was weird when I saw in the videos he was dressing like him too.

Originally Posted by Shorty

Additionally, the sort of slavish adulation of someone who was by virtually all accounts a thoroughly unpleasant man, even to the point of copying his clothing strikes me as very, very odd.

[jamo]

Also, I took a look at Furyk vs Hogan and found no similiarities.

You found no similarities? I would look again. They might not be spitting images, but they both get all of the important stuff the same. That's why they were/are on the PGA Tour.

[Hogan Project]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

The logic is flawed, a dance is in itself the end result.  If you copy someones dance steps you will appear to dance like them.    Moon-walking is moon-walking, MJ might do it better but if you create the illusion the goal is met.  A golf swing consists of a series of body movements with the goal being to hit a golf ball properly.  You can watch all the video you want and even if you get your hips, arms and head to align with his videos there's no guarantee that you'll hit a golf ball like he did because his swing was personal to him, his height, physique, flexibility, strength, hand/eye domination, grip, etc.  You can't see everything he's doing, you just think you can.

Ok....i'll go with your "logic is flawed" view. Let's say I were to pick a player of todays era and had access to his high-speed video.....one of those super-high resolution 1000fps Casios. Would I be able to see everything with this type camera?

[Hogan Project]

Originally Posted by jamo

You found no similarities? I would look again. They might not be spitting images, but they both get all of the important stuff the same. That's why they were/are on the PGA Tour.

Yes,one similarity is the impact position. Both Hogan and Fyryk and "angle-hingers." At impact, their hips are open, right elbow glued to their right hip, and right arm bent.

[newtogolf]

Most likely not, because even in high resolution video they are clothed and you can't see all their muscles interacting.   I'm sure you know that you're not the first to try to "uncover" Hogans secret, there are a few authors that have made an attempt but you stated you don't want to read anything right now.   If you change your mind you might want to read "The Secret of Hogans swing" by Tom Bertand,  "The Final Missing Piece of Ben Hogan's Secret Puzzle" by V.J. Trolio along with Hogans own "Five Lessons" and "Power Golf" where Hogan describes his grip and swing mechanics as he understood them.

I'm not trying to be an ass I just wanted to point out the difficulty of what you're trying to achieve. You're trying to duplicate another persons swing by using video that was taken throughout his career which if you read any books on him you'd know he was constantly adjusting to control his hook.  Hogan made major changes to his swing after his accident because his body wouldn't allow him to swing the way he used to.   A golf swing is not similar to memorizing dance steps, people are taught choreography all the time.  You're trying to duplicate  all the intricate movements of a golf swing and getting similar results as the person you copied it from using your own body.  As I said I wish you luck as I believe it's a daunting task.

Originally Posted by Hogan Project

Ok....i'll go with your "logic is flawed" view. Let's say I were to pick a player of todays era and had access to his high-speed video.....one of those super-high resolution 1000fps Casios. Would I be able to see everything with this type camera?

[saevel25]

Ok now your nit picking, yes he might not be able to get the feel hogan had, but he can surely nail the positions int he golf swing and the transition. His speed might not be the same, but with alot of practice he can get damn close to Hogan. So who cares, i think its admirable that he is trying to copy a player such as Hogan. Actually of all the swings to copy, i think Hogan would be the easiest, because its a very modern swing, he was very position oriented, and practiced hard. The swing that might be nearly impossible to recreate would be someone of Bobby jones or sam sneed, were there fluid athletism allowed them to have such a swing. That would be a really tough test.

[LankyLefty]

Originally Posted by Hogan Project

Yes,one similarity is the impact position. Both Hogan and Fyryk and "angle-hingers." At impact, their hips are open, right elbow glued to their right hip, and right arm bent.

Hogan and Furyk do not at all have the same impact position at all not even close. Furyk is wide open at impack open shoulders, open hips everything hes practically faceing his target. Hogan at impact has barely open hips, his shoulders are not open at all and you would never describe him as faceing the target.

Personally I find this thread kinda creepy. If you by chance do get better at golf over the course of this its probably because you've spent more time practicing not because your swing will look like Ben Hogan's.

[iacas]

I am not sure I see the point in copying someone's swing when your physique is different.

Also, which swing are you copying? He had two or three.

[Hogan Project]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Most likely not, because even in high resolution video they are clothed and you can't see all their muscles interacting.   I'm sure you know that you're not the first to try to "uncover" Hogans secret, there are a few authors that have made an attempt but you stated you don't want to read anything right now.   If you change your mind you might want to read "The Secret of Hogans swing" by Tom Bertand,  "The Final Missing Piece of Ben Hogan's Secret Puzzle" by V.J. Trolio along with Hogans own "Five Lessons" and "Power Golf" where Hogan describes his grip and swing mechanics as he understood them.

I'm not trying to be an ass I just wanted to point out the difficulty of what you're trying to achieve. You're trying to duplicate another persons swing by using video that was taken throughout his career which if you read any books on him you'd know he was constantly adjusting to control his hook.  Hogan made major changes to his swing after his accident because his body wouldn't allow him to swing the way he used to.   A golf swing is not similar to memorizing dance steps, people are taught choreography all the time.  You're trying to duplicate  all the intricate movements of a golf swing and getting similar results as the person you copied it from using your own body.  As I said I wish you luck as I believe it's a daunting task.

I understand your point about muscle interaction, but I am not in any way working towards making my muscles do what Hogan's did.

Let me know your thoughts on this example: Let's say that Hogan sat down and did an interview about his takeaway. The reporter asked "how do you go from address to the top of the swing?" Let's say that Hogan said "well, I use my dominant left hand and force my elbow backand around my right side, while keeping my weight inside my right leg/knee. The muscles I feel interacting are my left wrist and right shoulder." While doing this move, his club and body are doing a particular thing. The face and shaft are going from address through a series of positions until they are at the top. Now, imagine the same reporter sat down with me and asked the same question. My respose would be "well, I roll my left wrist under and force my elbow backand around my right side, while keeping my weight inside my right leg/knee. The muscles I feel interacting are my left chest and right shoulder."

When I play back the video of myself vs Hogan, both match. (and right now, they are nowhere near matching lol) The point I am making is that my goal is to match what I see, not what his swing feelings were.

This also reminds me of a guy that was wanting to understand the Hogan "starting down/transition" theory. He said he finally got his hips to move like Hogans on the downswing, and his ball striking improved a great deal, but when he looked back at the book, Hogan said something about the hips start the downswing. Since he was making his move happen using his left foot, he said that he couldn't be right because Hogan said the hips were the way to go, so he tried focusing more on the hip "because Hogan said to"; his swing went to crap shortly thereafter. Said he was back to the drawing board to "gain more understanding on the Hogan hip move." What the heck???? If his hips started to look like that of Hogan, and his ballstriking improved, even if he was mentally thinking of his left foot, why toss it out because Hogan and "the instruction manual" said otherwise?

[Hogan Project]

Originally Posted by iacas

I am not sure I see the point in copying someone's swing when your physique is different.

Also, which swing are you copying? He had two or three.

The point of this project is to:

1. Gain an understanding of the science of "success duplication".

2. To see how close I am able to come to matching the Hogan mechanical movement.

The indirect result of the project will possibly be:

1. An in-depth understanding of the golf swing

2. Improved ball-striking

At this phase in the project, I have no idea if the main points or indirect results are at all possible. I will let you know when I am finished.

[Hogan Project]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Most likely not, because even in high resolution video they are clothed and you can't see all their muscles interacting.   I'm sure you know that you're not the first to try to "uncover" Hogans secret, there are a few authors that have made an attempt but you stated you don't want to read anything right now.   If you change your mind you might want to read "The Secret of Hogans swing" by Tom Bertand,  "The Final Missing Piece of Ben Hogan's Secret Puzzle" by V.J. Trolio along with Hogans own "Five Lessons" and "Power Golf" where Hogan describes his grip and swing mechanics as he understood them.

I'm not trying to be an ass I just wanted to point out the difficulty of what you're trying to achieve. You're trying to duplicate another persons swing by using video that was taken throughout his career which if you read any books on him you'd know he was constantly adjusting to control his hook.  Hogan made major changes to his swing after his accident because his body wouldn't allow him to swing the way he used to.   A golf swing is not similar to memorizing dance steps, people are taught choreography all the time.  You're trying to duplicate  all the intricate movements of a golf swing and getting similar results as the person you copied it from using your own body.  As I said I wish you luck as I believe it's a daunting task.

I'm not trying to uncover any type of secret. It's as simple as:

1. Put a video of Hogan on the screen.
2. Press play............once he has moved the club 2 inches, press pause.
3. Put a video of my swing right next to his, press play and once my club moves 2 inches, hit pause.
4. Did my movement match that of Hogan's? Is my club in approximately in the same position? If yes, goto step 9. If no, goto step 5.
5. turn camera back on an make same 2" movement again, making a milimeter-sized adjustment to it to hopefully get my position to match.
6. Load both persons back on screen.
7. Does my movement match Hogans? If yes goto step 9. If no, goto step 1.
8. END
9. yell loudly "YEEEEESSS!!! FINALLY GOT IT", then proceed to next phase of swing.

I have no clue how long this process will take.

And oh yeah, once I get to step 9, do this movement 100 fintillion times until it becomes muscle memory, because as I've learned over the past month, I can think I have somehing figured out, then I go and eat dinner, come back to try the same move, and find out my muscles have alzhiemers.

I had a good debate with a guy on the topic of Hogan's swing. He said " Hogan's swing was part of his DNA,not yours". On a joking note, it has been scientifically proven that DNA is extractable and clonable lol. On a serious note, take the example of language. I am teaching myself Spanish and Italian. I was born in the United States and I have the accent of a person born/raised in the U.S. This is not part of my DNA, it is based on the surrounding I was raised in, based on the observational learning that took place when I was growing up. I developed the accent of the people around me. As I began to learn Spanish , I spoke Spanish words with an "American" accent. Over time, I have been able to observe/listen to Spanish speakers and gain an understanding of the specifics of their accent, and can now speak Spanish that sounds like I am from Spain. I have never been there, I have no Spanish relatives, I have no Spanish "DNA," but I was able to copy and imitate.

In time, I will observe enough of the Hogan moves and practice them enough until my swing has a Hogan accent.