More on Lag

[iacas]

Golfers far and wide want "more lag." But why? And what is "lag"?

If I were to define "lag" it would simply be "the shaft trailing behind the lead arm." You have no lag when you reach what's called an "inline" condition - the shaft is "in line with" the left (lead) arm. The smaller the angle between the shaft and the left arm, the more "lag" you've got.

Lag serves two purposes.

The first is that it helps us to control the low point of the swing. If you flip, your low point is likely too far back. The low point of the swing, for most good golf swings is generally under the left shoulder. Also generally , that's when a good player will "run out of lag" and reach an inline condition with the left arm-shaft. If you lengthen the radius of the left shoulder to the clubhead prematurely, the clubhead will be ascending when it reaches a spot beneath the left shoulder. So the proper timing of that "long radius" to be roughly at low point is important.

The second is both the aid to acceleration and the instantaneous speed achieved by delaying lag as long as possible. I'l talk briefly about both.

The first is simply this. Imagine a golf swing in which the shaft simply stayed inline with the left arm. Imagine moving your left arm across your chest or rotating your entire chest in a circle with in this sort of fashion. Now imagine taping your driver or sand wedge so that the clubhead was by your shoulder and the grip was taped to your hand. You can imagine how swinging your left arm across your chest or spinning your torso (or in terms of the golf swing, doing both at the same time) would be faster because the mass is located closer to the center of the circle. So that's one way in which lag helps - you can accelerate from the top of the backswing more with "more lag" (as defined, again, by the angle between the left arm and shaft).

The second way lag helps with clubhead speed is that you're able to snap the clubhead down quickly just before impact, resulting in near instantaneous speed. You can look up the "small pulley" stuff in TGM if you'd like, but consider a ball on a string. If you grab one end of the string with a ball or a rock on the other end, and you want to get the ball moving as quickly as possible, you don't swing your arm around your body in big circles. You swing it in small, tight circles. These tight circles result in a higher linear velocity than big, slow circles.

The problem is that the latter can be tough to time. Sergio Garcia is a good example of the latter - he employs more of a "snap" release. But Jason Zuback has a "sweep" release and hits the ball just fine. I won't get into the differences there, but will point out that both are highly effective.

The one commonality? All good golf swings have some lag until impact or slightly after impact, particularly on shots struck from the ground (you can flip just slightly with the driver since low point can be behind the golf ball).

Two take-aways:

1. Too much lag is almost worse than too little.
2. It's not so much how much lag you've got, it's when you cease to have any that matters.

[iacas]

More here, too: http://thesandtrap.com/t/32431/lag-sweep-release-vs-snap-release

http://iacas.org/f/zuback_downswing_sequence.jpg

[MiniBlueDragon]

I think something else that may be a good addition to this topic is artificial lag?

Correct me if I'm wrong (seriously! That's not meant as a smartass comment) but many high cappers, myself included a year or so ago have the notion that they need to "keep the lag" which translates to a mental image of holding tight and holding on to the angle for as long as humanly possible. It's pretty easy for a guy to cock his wrists and maintain the vast majority of their lag throughout the entire swing if they so chose to and then they have to choose when to allow the lag to release which leads to timing issues.

If a player allows the lag to be what it is, this real lag in the swing will be maintained, and even increased slightly as the torso rotates and should release exactly when it's needed to.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

It's pretty easy for a guy to cock his wrists and maintain the vast majority of their lag throughout the entire swing if they so chose to and then they have to choose when to allow the lag to release which leads to timing issues.

I suppose if that was the only goal, sure, you could have "too much" lag or "release it too late" but when you ask the average guy to make a golf swing, believe me, nobody does this at all. That's why "lag drills" include such extreme exaggerations... because nobody even comes close.

[saevel25]

I use to flip, it takes some time to get what the hands should do. I found i flipped more when i had a weaker grip, because i would try to square up the clubhead. I went to a stronger grip, now its more natural in my swing to get the clubhead to were i want it. This has gotten me the proper lag to impact.

I do find that the issue with lag, has more to do with how the clubhead comes into impact, rather than trying to hold onto the lag as much as possible. I think it could be said that if you hold onto the lag you might create the condition for a flip, because now the golfer has become anxious in wondering if they will ever release all that pent up stress in there wrists holding that lagging position so long.

I honestly think lag is probably one of the last things that a person should think about in a golf swing, and see if other corrections in making the golf swing better, would improve the lag as a side effect.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by iacas

I suppose if that was the only goal, sure, you could have "too much" lag or "release it too late" but when you ask the average guy to make a golf swing, believe me, nobody does this at all. That's why "lag drills" include such extreme exaggerations... because nobody even comes close.

Sorry; bad explanation by me. What I meant was if someone cocked both wrists to 90 degrees and then gripped hard and tensed their forearms they'd be able to keep the majority of that lag if they spun around their core and never released or let that 'lag' go. e.g. it's artificial lag or just a retained wrist cock as it's being manually retained by the golfer for as long as they see fit and then allowed to release when they want it to.

'lag' to me is a real phenomenon whereby the clubhead remains naturally behind the hands due to the movement of the hands (see the first minute of the below video)

[mchepp]

I say lag must be important, heck it got two articles in this new Swing Thought thread, and this just got started.

[TN94z]

With my experience on lag and flipping, the lack of lag came from swing faults which caused me to flip.  I was basically coming over the top, not much hip turn, straightening my legs to the point of coming up on my toes at impact, etc.....  All of these conditions were leading to my body getting in a bind and basically had no choice but flip.  I found that when I actually got my swing mechanics where they needed to be (inside out, good posture, good hip turn, etc....) it became much harder for me to flip.  More lag in my swing definitely added distance and more contact consistency.

Now this was just my situation and I worked with a teacher to fix these issues by using exaggerated lag drills (along with correcting swing issues) and my lag got better.  Unfortunately, I didn't practice or play for a while and the flipping has returned....

[luu5]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Sorry; bad explanation by me. What I meant was if someone cocked both wrists to 90 degrees and then gripped hard and tensed their forearms they'd be able to keep the majority of that lag if they spun around their core and never released or let that 'lag' go. e.g. it's artificial lag or just a retained wrist cock as it's being manually retained by the golfer for as long as they see fit and then allowed to release when they want it to.

I would say more useful would be to keep right hand cupped as long as you can (late hitting), instead of trying to keep your wrists cocked (lag). As a swing thought that is. Even if Zuback looks like casting he still has cupped right wrist at impact and is able to hit hard with right arm.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by iacas

Two take-aways:

Too much lag is almost worse than too little.

It's not so much how much lag you've got, it's when you cease to have any that matters.

A great explanation. Thanks for posting. This is one of the issues I faced early this year. From ball to ball, I was going from flipping to too much lag as I had no idea what to do with my hands through impact. I had a vicious cycle going of blocks and pulls depending on the amount of hand manipulation. The key for me was to not do anything with the hands at impact but to continue turning through the shot. My one mental image now is to simply concentrate on reaching impact with my hands ahead of the clubhead.

[k14]

Originally Posted by saevel25

I use to flip, it takes some time to get what the hands should do. I found i flipped more when i had a weaker grip, because i would try to square up the clubhead. I went to a stronger grip, now its more natural in my swing to get the clubhead to were i want it. This has gotten me the proper lag to impact.

I do find that the issue with lag, has more to do with how the clubhead comes into impact, rather than trying to hold onto the lag as much as possible. I think it could be said that if you hold onto the lag you might create the condition for a flip, because now the golfer has become anxious in wondering if they will ever release all that pent up stress in there wrists holding that lagging position so long.

I honestly think lag is probably one of the last things that a person should think about in a golf swing, and see if other corrections in making the golf swing better, would improve the lag as a side effect.

Totally agree with your last sentence. I went from a chronic flipper to pretty decent lag swing in 3-4 months through having a decent amount of  lessons (an hour every 2 weeks). One day I was filming myself and saw I was lagging pretty good. Where my club used to be fully released and I was starting to flip my wrists now were still fully cocked. A 30-40 yard increase over all clubs was the result along with dropping 4-5 shots (and still decreasing). My instructor never once did anything that was specific to increasing my lag. Just changed my grip and got back to the fundamentals of a good swing. A good swing and lag go hand in hand.

[MiniBlueDragon]

The above is what I was saying about the difference between artificial lag and natural lag.

With artificial lag you can have the worst swing in the world and can still "hold" your wrist cock in the swing, creating what looks like lag but is in fact just a held wrist cock. That held wrist cock can be released as and when you see fit so in the case of flipping, it's being manually released and released too early.

With natural lag it can only occur if the arms and wrists are loose enough for the club to trail behind naturally as a result of the swing.

The first minute of the video I posted above explains it a little better.

[nevets88]

So would you say that if someone aims to move his low spot forward and is successful at it, that lag will come as a result? That it comes along for the ride, so to speak?

[bunkerputt]

I managed to actually hit a few shots with what I would consider extreme lag, i.e. hands well outside of left thigh when viewed face-on, on the launch monitor.  Here are the results:

6-iron launch 11 degrees, 220 carry.  Driver launch 3 degrees, 1000 rpm spin, 160 carry.  I would say that's much worse than flipping and hitting your 6-iron 160 and your driver 220 like a lot of people do.  The 6-iron might impress some, but to people who know how to score, it's the kind of game that provides too many challenges to manage.  Hitting it low when you want the ball to run and get distance can come in handy in windy conditions, but most of the time it's just too hard to judge total distance, and most people don't play a lot of links style courses in Texas in the winter anyway.  There's a reason a lot of shots at the Open championship don't even come close to the pin.  Even in windy conditions I've found it easier to groove a stock medium trajectory and just play the wind.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mchepp

I say lag must be important, heck it got two articles in this new Swing Thought thread, and this just got started.

Just a topic that's being discussed a lot lately, and thus, on my mind lately. ;-)

Originally Posted by nevets88

So would you say that if someone aims to move his low spot forward and is successful at it, that lag will come as a result? That it comes along for the ride, so to speak?

There's some of that, but you can of course move your low point forward and still lose lag too quickly. Dropping your head for example. In general, though, there's some truth to that, sure.

[Fatphil]

Originally Posted by luu5

I would say more useful would be to keep right hand cupped as long as you can (late hitting), instead of trying to keep your wrists cocked (lag). As a swing thought that is. Even if Zuback looks like casting he still has cupped right wrist at impact and is able to hit hard with right arm.

the cupped trailing hand and the pronated lead hand is the classic move.  The point that you make the move is difficult to learn and is a very individual action.  Dustin Johnson does it at the top, Boo Weekly makes it at transition, Phil and Freddy tend to make it just prior to impact.  To learn what works for you on an individual basis is not easy.  When it works its awesome, but the next weekend ya can't remember what the hell you did.  As Johnny Miller says...WOOD (Works Only One Day).

[Stewie007]

I've been working on this for a little bit and I've gotten it down pretty well with my irons; at least I did at the range today. Its with my driver and woods that I've fallen apart in these matters. I think I'm way over thinking it all.

[bunkerputt]

I started having real lag (as opposed to "fake" lag) when I started focusing on steadily driving the acceleration of the clubhead, based on feedback from the lag pressure in my hands.  In my confused way of thinking, I was always under the impression that I struggled with lag because of flexibility or positioning or whatever.  I thought if I just hit the gym harder, and got even stronger, I would develop lag naturally.  What I found is that as I got stronger and stronger, the throwing issue just got worse.  A huge breakthrough came when I realized that I was accelerating way too fast and explosively from the top of the backswing.  There was no way for me to move all 225 lbs of my body into position fast enough to catch up with the speed my arms generated early on.  The club was completely thrown at that point and it was catch-up from then on.  No wonder strength training made the problem worse.  I consistently neglected to maintain lag pressure in my hands so that I was steadily driving the clubhead instead of throwing it rapidly from the top of the swing.  Now when I watch Tiger on the range:

...and compare it with Tiger in play:

I see someone who is starting slowly, setting up the feeling of steady driving pressures at the range, and then letting it rip out on the course.