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The Ps (Positions) or As (Alignments) in the Golf Swing


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You would think that all golf instructors would know their As and Ps and use them to communicate with their students. Few do.

Anyone contemplating taking lessons should probably print this post out and give it to their instructor so that you both on on the same page when you are talking about different segments of the swing.

Golf pro, golf instructor, golf coach -- whatever you want to call yourself -- it really comes down to golf teaching and communication. You need a common language to do that succesfully. The instruction you are giving may make perfect sense to you, but if we the students can not put the instruction into the proper perspective then you have not taught and we have not learned anything.

This is one of my favorite posts in all of TST.

Is their a way to bookmark your favorite posts in TST?

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Originally Posted by 2thetee

Is their a way to bookmark your favorite posts in TST?

You can "subscribe" to it, or bookmark it in your browser. If you subscribe ( Screen Shot 2012-05-25 at 10.15.55 am.PNG ) then it'll always be available here: http://thesandtrap.com/users/subscriptions/ .

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Originally Posted by 2thetee

You would think that all golf instructors would know their As and Ps and use them to communicate with their students. Few do.

The golf academy where I work has adopted these As/Ps and we explain them to our students during our lessons. They really help students know where their club needs to be at all times during the swing and identify the exact A/P where things start to go off track. It's a small step, but we feel it is vital to bring our students closer to our terminology so communication is between student and teacher is as free-flowing as possible.

I insisted on adopting these As/Ps because I was having a hard time getting students to take the club back to a certain A/P and stop. Now I just say, swing at 10% of your maximum speed from A1 to A3 to A8, for example.

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  • 1 month later...
Very nice post. From a high-handicaper and new to the technical and analytical side of golf this was very easy to understand and made a few of the puzzle pieces to fall in place. The pictures along side the text made it easy to follow the technichal terms for a non-native english speaker. Thanks Eric
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  • 4 years later...

Bumping this to ask if this terminology has changed at all over the years.  I've seen folks reference the positions and went to seek out something that would translate them for me.

TIA

 

 

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12 hours ago, Antneye said:

Bumping this to ask if this terminology has changed at all over the years.

No, not really.

Other people surely have different naming methods, but we've never had to change these for ourselves or anything.

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  • 10 months later...

Would it be fair to assume that as long as you get to a good position at A6, everything before that as a bit..   I don’t know the word...    flexible? 

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1 minute ago, lastings said:

Would it be fair to assume that as long as you get to a good position at A6, everything before that as a bit..   I don’t know the word...    flexible? 

No. Not at all, really.

We've seen people who, at the moment in time that is A6, look good, but they're in the process of pitching the clubhead out, or having it fall back in behind them too much, or all sorts of things.

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By the way, I can’t believe this thread has 2 replies in 5 years.   Feels like one of the most valuable threads on this site. 

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

No. Not at all, really.

We've seen people who, at the moment in time that is A6, look good, but they're in the process of pitching the clubhead out, or having it fall back in behind them too much, or all sorts of things.

Fair enough.   I guess I’m just thinking in terms of someone like furyk. I would guess his swing would be all over the place in previous positions but perfect in A6.  

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  • 1 month later...

Really enjoyed this post and the great photos. It certainly provides a wealth of knowledge and helps explain positions in the swing in a clearer fashion. Thanks!!

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  • 7 months later...
26 minutes ago, Aj_ ninja said:

@iacas can you add this post to the TST instructional thread, I’m always referring back to this when analyzing my own swing

@iacas 

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1 hour ago, Aj_ ninja said:

@iacas can you add this post to the TST instructional thread, I’m always referring back to this when analyzing my own swing

I added it, though a shorter version was always in the first link on that page: 

.

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  • 2 years later...
On 10/9/2011 at 12:47 PM, iacas said:

If you'll allow, I'd like to stray from the "op/ed" nature of this column for a moment to cover the "positions" or "Ps" in the golf swing. For many this will be review, but many will hopefully learn about these "positions" in the golf swing.

 

Update 2012-02-23: In the 5 Simple Keys® (5SK) world we've chosen to call these the alignments in the golf swing, as we wish to put less emphasis on "positions" and view them more as checkpoints at which some measurements might be taken.

 

I'll choose Charlie Wi for many of the pictures simply for consistency's sake and because I know this particular swing illustrates something at A6.

 

A1 - Address

Very simple one to understand, as A1 is the setup or address position. You can judge things like posture and overall setup, ball position, handle location (too close to the thighs, leaning back or forward too much), the hang of the arms, weight location (toes/heels as well as forward/back).

 

 

P1

 

A2 - Shaft Horizontal (Backswing)

This position allows you to look at how quickly the shoulders are turning, how quickly the wrists are hinging/cocking, how much the wrists and forearms are rolling, whether the head is translating or staying relatively stable, how much the shoulders have turned, etc. This is one of the somewhat "looser" positions because the wrist cock will determine the location of A2. For example, Charlie Wi hits a fairly normal A2 position (albeit one with a lot of depth):

P2

 

But Rickie Fowler's A2 looks funny because he doesn't roll his forearms at all in the start of the backswing:

P2_Rickie

 

Steve Stricker sets his wrists later, so the shaft "ascends" more slowly and "arrives" at A2 a little "late."

P2_Stricker.jpg

Late wrist sets will tend to look like the club has been taken more inside or under than it really has, and early wrist sets will tend to look the opposite.

 

A3 - Lead Arm Horizontal (Backswing)

When the lead arm is parallel we can check the wrist cock (typically around 90 degrees), we can check the shaft plane and the plane of the hands (where are they coming out of the body - base of the bicep? Top of the shoulder? Mid-way?), we can check relative shoulder turn (some people stop turning here, some haven't turned enough because they've just swung their arms back). We can check the head, the shoulder pitch becomes evident down the line, and more.

P3.jpg

 

Note that Rickie's backswing is a product not of quickly cocking the wrists but of allowing very little rotation of the forearms or wrists ("accumulator #3" in TGM). His left arm to shaft measurement at A3 is only 107 degrees).

P3_Rickie.jpg

 

Of course, Steve Stricker's is even more:

P3_Stricker.jpg

 

A4 - Top of the Backswing

Wherever this player reaches the top of the backswing, that's A4. Note that a shaft isn't necessarily "laid off" if it points left of the target before the shaft reaches horizontal, nor is it surely "across the line" if it is pointing right but past parallel. Many things can be checked at A4 - wrist conditions, shoulder tilt, any translation off the ball, plane, right elbow flex, left arm position, weight/pressure/CG location, etc.

 

P4.jpg

 

A5 - Lead Arm Horizontal (Downswing)

This position can tell us many things as it's early enough in the downswing that a player can still make changes much more easily to affect A6 and A7. How far "in" is the left arm? What's the shaft done based on the wrist conditions? How's the right elbow working - towards the belt buckle or staying behind the rib cage? Have the hips begun going forwards? Has the head started tipping back? What's the plane of the shaft like?

 

P5.jpg

 

Note that in Rickie Fowler's case, "lag" appears excessive but it's an optical illusion. He's simply "laid the shaft down" so much that the face-on view is not a good indicator of lag.

P5_Rickie.jpg

 

See the blue lines on the left? Imagine they represented his left arm and clubshaft. Imagine he rolled his left forearm and wrist enough to lay the shaft down that much. Look at how much "lag" it would appear he has from the face-on view! In reality, "lag" should be measured from perpendicular to the plane containing the three points: left shoulder, left wrist, clubhead. It might surprise you to know that Rickie doesn't have a ton more lag than good ol' Steve Stricker, but the camera position and the "laying the shaft down" throws you off:

 

P5_Stricker.jpg

 

 

A6 - Shaft Horizontal (Downswing)

A key position. There are a lot of things you can check here, but one of the keys is where the clubhead is relative to the hands. Charlie is pretty well "on-plane" here:

P6.jpg

 

Note the two lines I've drawn. If your clubhead appears beneath or inside of your hands - the location of the green line - you're quite likely going to send the path of the golf club out to the right. If your clubhead is outside your hands or above the plane like in the right, you're quite likely sending the clubhead path left. The clubhead in the red case is "over the top" of the hands plane - one of a few definitions for that term ("over the top").

 

Though A6 is highly sensitive to camera position, it's clear that Steve Stricker is going to "hit out" at this ball, while Rickie Fowler - despite "laying the shaft down" heavily from P3.5 to P5 - is coming down pretty well on-plane.

P6_Rickie_Stricker.jpg

 

Skipping ahead a little bit, I think this picture will make a little sense to people. I've traced the clubhead in both Steve Stricker's swing and Charlie Wi's (Rickie's is similar to Charlie's). As you can see, the tangential line at the bottom of the swing arc in Steve Stricker's swing - called the "base plane line" or "base line" - is pointed well to the right. If you imagine creating a plane on the arrows, the base of it would rest along the blue arrow. Charlie's (and Rickie's) plane is much more "at the target" than Steve's.

 

Planes_Stricker_Wi.jpg

 

Steve Stricker plays a ball that pushes and draws a little, and catches the ball just in front of of low point to help the clubhead go a little left to take some of the draw curve off of his golf ball.

 

Final note on P6: good golfers tend - nine indeces on downward (with increasing frequency) to get "under" plane or "stuck" (hello, Tiger Woods!), while poor golfers tend to be "over."

 

 

A7 - Impact

Things to look for here are fairly obvious: clean contact, clubhead traveling in which direction (ideally +/- a few degrees), handle leaning forward an appropriate amount (0 to 10 degrees, rarely more; less with the longer clubs, more with the shorter ones), etc.

P7.jpg

 

 

A8 - Shaft Horizontal to the Ground on Follow-Through

A9 - Lead Arm Horizontal to the Ground on Follow-Through

In virtually every golf swing, the shaft is horizontal to the ground before the lead arm, but the two are sometimes very closely timed. These images are from before A8 and A9, but honestly, A8, A9, and A10 are almost never used in discussing the golf swing because they're simply an indicator of what's come before. They are however quite useful in instruction, as a student modeling a position at A8 or A9 will introduce changes to his motion prior to A7 which will have (if the instruction is correct) positive results.

 

P8.jpg

 

A10 - End of Swing

Again, debatable, but for all practical purposes, A9 is almost never discussed. It's too easily "faked." :-)

 

P9.jpg

 

Thank you for explaining this in nice detail.  I have been playing this game for 50 years and always felt so stupid not understanding what everyone was talking about when the "A" positions were discussed. 

Now I understand 

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