Playing by the rules........ Is there one here who can cast the first stone?

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by Paradox

right, I forgot your holier than thou attitude.  my handicap scores are all played down..thanks for being concerned over my handicap, though.

You're the one who said you "really only play casually" but then claim a lowish handicap. Why not play all of your rounds "down"? You never know when you might have a good round. Seems weird that you could start a round and say it is a casual one and then start another one and say it's for handicap.  Where I come from, every round is played for handicap and every round is played "down". That's how you get a handicap that reflects the way you paly.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Paradox

could be the first rule..I just know its a rule...sometimes I just get tired of hitting off of bare spots, though.

I'd get tired of playing a course where that's a common lie.

[Paradox]

Originally Posted by Shorty

You're the one who said you "really only play casually" but then claim a lowish handicap. Why not play all of your rounds "down"? You never know when you might have a good round. Seems weird that you could start a round and say it is a casual one and then start another one and say it's for handicap.  Where I come from, every round is played for handicap and every round is played "down". That's how you get a handicap that reflects the way you paly.

I play with my father..who is new to the game, and also play with some other friends who are new to the game.  I spend more time helping them out than playing for a score..I more or less am just hitting shots and working on my own game, too.  WHen I said casually, it means I don't play in tournaments.  My regular group of players are all competitively even and we play by the rules and thats where my handicap comes from.

I am surely not the only one who plays rounds as practice.

[Paradox]

only been this year...lots of rain creating lots of soft ground which the mowers would rip up or some idiot in a golf cart driving where they shouldn't be.

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I'd get tired of playing a course where that's a common lie.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Paradox

I really only play casually and I think that the only rule I really break is moving my ball when its sitting on dirt.  I'll just place it on the nearest piece of grass..even if its crappy and play from there.

Since the very basis of a handicap index is that all rounds are played by USGA rules and all eligible rounds are turned in I don't understand how someone could play casually and ignore certain rules yet have a handicap.  By stating you have a handicap index you are essentially saying that you DO follow the rules.  When by your own admission you don't.

Plus you cheat yourself, because hitting out of bad lies will improve your swing.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Paradox

I play with my father..who is new to the game, and also play with some other friends who are new to the game.  I spend more time helping them out than playing for a score..I more or less am just hitting shots and working on my own game, too.  WHen I said casually, it means I don't play in tournaments.  My regular group of players are all competitively even and we play by the rules and thats where my handicap comes from.

I am surely not the only one who plays rounds as practice.

Now you are changing your story.  At first you said you only play casually.  Now it turns out that sometimes you play "practice" rounds where you don't hit off bare lies (I don't really see why that would be the distinction between a real round and a practice round - how does rolling your ball off of bare lies enhance your practice?) and sometimes play with a regular group and follow the rules - despite the fact that originally you said you ONLY played casually.  But then again your screen name is Paradox, so maybe it really does all make sense.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Now you are changing your story.  At first you said you only play casually.  Now it turns out that sometimes you play "practice" rounds where you don't hit off bare lies (I don't really see why that would be the distinction between a real round and a practice round - how does rolling your ball off of bare lies enhance your practice?) and sometimes play with a regular group and follow the rules - despite the fact that originally you said you ONLY played casually.  But then again your screen name is Paradox, so maybe it really does all make sense.

It gets too complicated if you qualify each round as "casual" or "serious".  For that reason I play every round as if it was "serious", even when it's actually "casual".  I play regular rounds with golfers of all abilities, from club pros to a couple of guys who struggle to break 110.  I play my game the same regardless of who I'm playing with.  Nothing else makes sense.

One pet peeve with Paradox's policy of teaching his father on the course.  I've been stuck behind someone more than once who was trying to give lessons to a friend or relative and that is some of the worst agony I've experienced on a golf course.  Save the teaching for the range, chipping and putting greens.  Unless the course is empty, leave the playing lessons to the pros.

By the way, the first Rule of Golf is:

1-1. General

The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes in accordance with the Rules .

Note the last 5 words.  If you leave them off, then you are only playing a game which resembles golf. I have a good friend who rarely breaks 100, yet he plays every round by the rules, counts every stroke.  We have a great time together, and we have immense fun.  So the theory that a high handicapper can't have fun and still play golf is pure bunk.  That way when he does have that occasional exceptional round, he knows that he really did it right.

[rustyredcab]

SATURDAY PLAY: Follow the spirit of the rules and encourage our group to do the same -- 50 cents on the line per point. Re-hit lost balls.Drop where one is entitled. Play ball out of divots and with mud on the ball, Take drops based on where the ball actually entered the hazard. Example of a rule I break on Saturdays: taking a drop that I know will roll into the hazard, I will not drop the ball twice letting it roll into the hazard and then place it. I'll just place it.

EVENT PLAY: Follow the rules to the letter as best as I understand them (which is better than most) and encourage everyone to protect the field by doing the same. I will drop twice, try and catch the ball as it rolls into the water, and the place it where it touched.

[newtogolf]

I will play "practice rounds" but that is typically when I know I'm not going to finish a full 18 or intend to work on my game and the course is the only place I can hit off real grass.  I always have fun playing golf even if it is frustrating at times.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I have a good friend who rarely breaks 100, yet he plays every round by the rules, counts every stroke.  We have a great time together, and we have immense fun.  So the theory that a high handicapper can't have fun and still play golf is pure bunk.  That way when he does have that occasional exceptional round, he knows that he really did it right.

[Paradox]

I'm not actually keeping score in those rounds..thats how it doesn't matter what I do in those rounds.  Does that make any sense to you?  I will hit several balls off the tee.  Drop a few balls for my approach shot and try different shots.  I am not focused on "scoring" i'm just wanting the ones I'm helping to get a good score.  In the end, I could care less what anyone else says..its actually kind of funny that people get so flustered about something that has no bearing on themselves.

I don't understand what the confusion about playing casually is all about.  It was just a reference that I'm not a tournament golfer.  My story hasn't changed.  When I play with guys who can actually play good golf I will play down and follow the rules.  When I'm focused on someone else having a good time and enjoying the day with them, I'll improve my lie if I feel like it.

Originally Posted by turtleback

Now you are changing your story.  At first you said you only play casually.  Now it turns out that sometimes you play "practice" rounds where you don't hit off bare lies (I don't really see why that would be the distinction between a real round and a practice round - how does rolling your ball off of bare lies enhance your practice?) and sometimes play with a regular group and follow the rules - despite the fact that originally you said you ONLY played casually.  But then again your screen name is Paradox, so maybe it really does all make sense.

Oh, and Fourputt, its not so much that I'm teaching...just getting them aligned right, helping them with clubs, and small little tips.  I've been stuck behind the "instructor" as well and wouldn't wish that upon anyone.  I'm am not a teaching pro by any stretch of the imagination so giving that kind of advice is beyond my control.  These people just want to play golf with me so I try to make it as enjoyable as possible, especially my dad.

[goblue107501]

It is amazing to me how many people are concerned (borderline obsessed) with what other people do on the course and how they play the game. Especially when those folks have never met and will never play together. People, let it go. Let the individual decide how they want to play and stop trying to force you own 'golf values' on others just because they don't play the same way. So many are worried about what someone's handicap is or what they shot? What does it matter to you? You live 5 states away and you will NEVER see that person on the course, or even more unlikely, play against them. The only time it should ever come up how an individual decides to play a round of golf is when they are on the first tee and stakes are made for the game. People are so concerned about making sure Joe Golfer has the proper score listed and the right handicap scores posted. I have news for you. The great majority of golfers don't care about their 'official' score or their 'official' handicap. If I've know 100 golfers in my life, I can count on two hands those that care about an official handicap. Most people playing don't need one and won't ever get one. The other 90+ people just like playing the game and hanging out with their friends. Just let them play the game in peace. I used to play in a game with some schoolteachers. Mostly guys in their 40s and 50s who like to play and enjoy each others company. We played by some of the goofiest rules out there. We would play skins and greenies and team bets for the total scores. Everything was played as a lateral hazard, and not even strict about it, just toss one down and get yourself a good lie. The ball was played up. Up to the point where you could get up to a clublength. Gimmies inside the leather. Some of the guys would play shambles in their group, and some would play their own ball. We kept score and settled up at the end. Usually just for quarters, but enough to keep you interested. I would drive over an hour each to play in that game because it was so much fun. Nobody bragged about their score because we all knew it didn't matter. We had to keep score to settle up, but no one cared about having a handicap. The majortiy of the scores were in the 70s and 80s. A few guys were better than others, but the rules we played made it a little more equal. Moral of the story is that without the goofy rules and scoring, half of those guys wouldn't play golf because they wouldn't be able to do well enough on their own and it wouldn't be any fun for them. Golf is supposed to be fun. It's a game, it's a hobby, it's something to do with your friends. It doesn't have to be taken seriously. I can guarantee you that there are more golfers that don't care about rules and official scoring than do.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Paradox

I'm not actually keeping score in those rounds..thats how it doesn't matter what I do in those rounds.  Does that make any sense to you?  I will hit several balls off the tee.  Drop a few balls for my approach shot and try different shots.  I am not focused on "scoring" i'm just wanting the ones I'm helping to get a good score.  In the end, I could care less what anyone else says..its actually kind of funny that people get so flustered about something that has no bearing on themselves.

I don't understand what the confusion about playing casually is all about.  It was just a reference that I'm not a tournament golfer.  My story hasn't changed.  When I play with guys who can actually play good golf I will play down and follow the rules.  When I'm focused on someone else having a good time and enjoying the day with them, I'll improve my lie if I feel like it.

Oh, and Fourputt, its not so much that I'm teaching...just getting them aligned right, helping them with clubs, and small little tips.  I've been stuck behind the "instructor" as well and wouldn't wish that upon anyone.  I'm am not a teaching pro by any stretch of the imagination so giving that kind of advice is beyond my control.  These people just want to play golf with me so I try to make it as enjoyable as possible, especially my dad.

Of course you're not supposed to turn in practice rounds for handicap purposes, and of course those rounds are still playing golf. Anyone who would argue otherwise is as best confused and at worst a judgmental and elitists bufoon. Yeah, I said that.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by goblue107501

Golf is supposed to be fun. It's a game, it's a hobby, it's something to do with your friends. It doesn't have to be taken seriously. I can guarantee you that there are more golfers that don't care about rules and official scoring than do.

I think that this is a good post - and I agree with you.

But the reason I get a bit uptight about it is that I read articles and reviews where people say stuff like "These wedges are not recommended for 15 handicappers" or when someone says "I am a 12 handicapper - what do you recommend?"

Is the 12 handicapper really a 25 handicapper? - and that would seem to be the case from what I have seen of "self-managed" handicap golfers.

Or----the notion that a genuine 15 handicapper can't handle a particular type of club is insane.

My point is that as a measure of parity or comparison, if you are going to talk about handicaps , which are a reflection of golf played strictly by the rules, the 15 handicapper that I think about would, in the minds of some be 30 handicapper and a the 9 marker a 25 marker.

[rustyredcab]

It is one thing to break a rule like dropping, knowing the ball will roll down a hill into the hazard, dropping again and watching it roll into the hazard again, and then placing it. It is another thing altogether to take a drop that is better than the drop you should get if you followed all the rules. It is one thing to fix a pitch mark when your ball is off the green when that pitch mark does not have anything to do with your ball and another thing to fix one in your line.

I'll give another example of a drop: There are lots of places on my home course where a red-staked hazard is right next to a paved cart path. In an "Event," I'll take my two club lengths from the hazard, mark it (on the cart path) and take a drop that leaves the ball on the path or bounds beyond the two club length rule and do that drop again if needed. Then I place the ball on the path if needed. Next I'll mark my one club length from the nearest point of relief from the paved path and drop again up to two times if needed. In a "Saturday" game, I'll skip all the first drops and drop off the path. Same result. Not exactly the rules but no advantage gained. I'll also sometimes twist a ball to line up a short putt without placing a marker behind the ball first (an old bad habit from playing alone). No improvement in the lie as the ball never moves from its original place. No real change in anything but a violation of the rules. And I would never do it in an event.

One of the great things about golf is playing by the rules and if I bend them for connivance or expedience, I make sure that I avoid any bending that gives me an advantage. It is not about comparing myself to others, or worrying about how you obey the rules. It is about playing against myself, the course, and the game.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Paradox

I'm not actually keeping score in those rounds..thats how it doesn't matter what I do in those rounds.  Does that make any sense to you?  I will hit several balls off the tee.  Drop a few balls for my approach shot and try different shots.  I am not focused on "scoring" i'm just wanting the ones I'm helping to get a good score.  In the end, I could care less what anyone else says..its actually kind of funny that people get so flustered about something that has no bearing on themselves.

I don't understand what the confusion about playing casually is all about.  It was just a reference that I'm not a tournament golfer.  My story hasn't changed.  When I play with guys who can actually play good golf I will play down and follow the rules.  When I'm focused on someone else having a good time and enjoying the day with them, I'll improve my lie if I feel like it.

Of course your story is changing.  Originally you said that you followed the rules except that you wouldn't hit off bare lies.  Then it became sometimes you do and sometimes you don't follow the rules depending on who you are playing with.  Now it becomes a complete disregard for the rules in so-called practice rounds.

Look, I don't care what you do.  But I am going to uphold the way the game should be played.  If you don't care what people say then why are you so intent on justifying yourself?

[walk18]

It is one thing to break a rule like dropping, knowing the ball will roll down a hill into the hazard, dropping again and watching it roll into the hazard again, and then placing it. It is another thing altogether to take a drop that is better than the drop you should get if you followed all the rules. It is one thing to fix a pitch mark when your ball is off the green when that pitch mark does not have anything to do with your ball and another thing to fix one in your line.

Ball marks can be repaired at any time whether in your line or not.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

One of the great things about golf is playing by the rules and if I bend them for connivance or expedience, I make sure that I avoid any bending that gives me an advantage. It is not about comparing myself to others, or worrying about how you obey the rules. It is about playing against myself, the course, and the game.

That is a good point.  In a casual round, on rare occasions, if I find my ball OB but didn't hit a provisional and the course is a little slow I might just take a drop for expediency's sake.  But I will do it the right way, add in TWO strokes, so that I am not benefiting compared to where I would have been had I gone back and re-hit.  And since the rest of the round was played according to the rules the round still has to be submitted for handicap purposes.

[TommyGunUK]

I think if your playing with a true beginner, the occassional mulligan, and waving of certain rules has to be done. The game is hard enough without the additional strains of the tough rules.

Once they get some experience then I would point out when they made a mistake for the first time, and possibly let it slide if they were unaware of the infringement, then after that enforce it.

Generally speaking playing to the rules improves the game and makes it a fairer match, handicaps are there to even things up.

The only rule I'm not a fan of is having to go back and play your ball if you cant find it. It causes such a delay to everyone behind you and in your group. Even if I was in competition and my "opponent" was meant to go back to the tee I would ask him to play it as a lateral hazard, taking a sensible guess at where best to place it.

If I was the original poster against friends who played 25 over while still not playing to the rules, then I would give them 25 shots and let them play as they normally do (within reason). If there handicap is 25 shots with a few rule bends then so be it.