How do you use your Handicap?

[Harmonious]

Handicaps work fine when it is one against one or, at most, a four ball match.  Where they don't work is in an unflighted net stroke play tournament.  Then, a higher handicap player will almost always win.  The only fair way to do it in that case is to have flights (either gross or net within flights) or have two "winners", one gross and one net.  If the tournament gave prizes or cash based on net scores only, I would never play.  It is just impossible to compete against 30 or 40 mid- to high-handicappers.  There will always be several of them that have a good day, which generally means 6 or 7 under, net.

One tournament I played in Canada had a good solution.  It was a pretty large field, and there were some very nice merchandise prizes available.  The low gross winner got the first pick of the prizes.  The low net winner got the 2nd pick.  2nd low gross got the 3rd pick, 2nd low net got the 4th pick, and on and on until all the prizes were gone.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by Shorty

Exactly.

It is pretty clear that people who complain don't actually understand what handicaps are or how they work.

They think that if they are 25 years old and shoot 75 against a 70 year old  who's had a heart transplant and plays off 16, and the old guy has nett 69 and he has nett 70, the handicap system is "bullshit".

In the same way that if Tiger Woods played with a 60 year old 10 marker who had nett 64 to his 65 off the stick  the handicap system is "bullshit".

The 25 markers at my club don't see the scratch marker as their competition andte scratch marker certainly doesn't see the 25 marker as their competition, except in the nett component of the competition which they don't care about.

What could be a bigger loser than someone who shoots 66 off the stick and feels robbed because a 25 marker shot 89?

It's not  matter of understanding it.  It's a matter of disagreeing with the concept.

[michaeljames92]

Actually I'm a member at Lake Karrinyup, it's in the top 10 in Australia and it was a saturday club competition. Our average age is also well over 50 years of age. We only have graded competitions for stroke rounds, which are once a month. For par and stableford rounds, everyone is in the same comp. So a 25 in competing against a +2. The gross prize is only ever a sleeve of Pro V1's, yet the net is always like a $200 voucher or a crystal decanter etc. This is why our club competition is flawed, yet it will never be changed.

See this btw, the USGA released this which pretty much proves my point:

http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/understanding_handicap/articles/deanstable.html

Originally Posted by Shorty

How is it fair? You have "no idea"?

It is fair because it was a net competition.

It is pretty obvious that people who whine about net competitions areen't members of clubs where the majority of players are older guys with high handicaps.

The 25 handicapper beat his own handicap by more than your mate. IT's that simple.

What are they supposed to do - say "Oh , even though it was a net competition we're going to award te net prize to someone who didn't win becauase he played a great round?

Come on.....he would have won the scratch component of the competition.

Obviously, it is easier for a 25 marjker to play 5 under his handicap than it is for a +2 marker to play 5 under his, but that is WHY we have handicaps.

So that there is competition. It's not a measure of who is the best golfer, that is obvious, it's simply a net competition. And ------ surely the competition is graded. Your mate wouldn't have been in the same competition as the 25 marker.

Now....if you had said that the 25 marker was declared the club champion,that would be something else.

[michaeljames92]

Dude you actually have issues. So you're telling me he had to shoot the course record to win the net comp? Yeah that's pretty standard I suppose, I mean if Ernie Els only shot 64 as his lowest at the course, I'm sure my mate could shoot 61.

http://www.iseekgolf.com/tournaments/253-johnnie-walker-classic-2003

Originally Posted by Shorty

Exactly.

It is pretty clear that people who complain don't actually understand what handicaps are or how they work.

They think that if they are 25 years old and shoot 75 against a 70 year old  who's had a heart transplant and plays off 16, and the old guy has nett 69 and he has nett 70, the handicap system is "bullshit".

In the same way that if Tiger Woods played with a 60 year old 10 marker who had nett 64 to his 65 off the stick  the handicap system is "bullshit".

The 25 markers at my club don't see the scratch marker as their competition andte scratch marker certainly doesn't see the 25 marker as their competition, except in the nett component of the competition which they don't care about.

What could be a bigger loser than someone who shoots 66 off the stick and feels robbed because a 25 marker shot 89?

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by michaeljames92

Dude you actually have issues. So you're telling me he had to shoot the course record to win the net comp? Yeah that's pretty standard I suppose, I mean if Ernie Els only shot 64 as his lowest at the course, I'm sure my mate could shoot 61.

http://www.iseekgolf.com/tournaments/253-johnnie-walker-classic-2003

Most golfers suck and they vote in numbers so . . .

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by michaeljames92

Dude you actually have issues. So you're telling me he had to shoot the course record to win the net comp? Yeah that's pretty standard I suppose, I mean if Ernie Els only shot 64 as his lowest at the course, I'm sure my mate could shoot 61.

http://www.iseekgolf.com/tournaments/253-johnnie-walker-classic-2003

Of course he would have to shoot the course record to win. It was a NETT competition.

In nett competitions, of course some burglar off 25 or 20 or 19 is going to beat someone off +2.

Everyone knows that results are skewed at the high handicap end of the scale.

That's why we had the recent handicap modification.

As you will have noticed, the difference is that the guy who was an 18 marker is now off 16 and instead of getting 44 points he gets 42.

iI have a friend off a +1 and he can shoot 4 under and barely win a ball.  He doesn't expect to win the handicap events.

And you're right - your club compettions are flawed.  I'm guessing the committee members aren't playing of +2

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Most golfers suck and they vote in numbers so . . .

...and there's your answer.

Look, the only way a 20-plus handicap golfer will have any chance to have a taste of competition is a net tournament. And this is a private club competition, right? Most members probably are the aforementioned 20-plus players. Ergo, you have a net tournament.

Sure it may not be fair to the +2 player, but look at it this way - that +2 player probably already has a few shelves of his home stocked with trophies due to being an excellent player. If he was here in America, I'm sure he would have played in his State Amateur, qualified for the US Amateur, won a variety of gross tournaments. A player of his caliber has a myriad of opportunities for competition. The 25-handicapper has one: His home club's net tournament.

The good player chose to play in one where the setup skewed to the poorer players. He knows he shot 66, and so does everyone else. He lost due to math, not skill level.

[Spyder]

I use my golf handicap strictly for my own personal measure. It's my way of tracking my progression throughout the year and really doesn't matter to me if I drop or increase it. Obviously it is required for tournaments, but its definitely not a bragging right. To me that would be like pulling up at the course in a Lamborghini and making fun of the guy pulling clubs out of his Prius. Well, I would probably make fun of that guy regardless of what I'm driving LOL but you get where I'm coming from. I don't like playing with people who wear their handicap on their hats.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

If a 25+ handicapper beats a true +2 by 5 strokes there's something wrong with the way the tournament was set up, one of their handicaps wasn't accurate or someone played way above or below their ability.

As a former league bowler I appreciate the benefits of a handicap when they are applied properly.  No one except top level bowlers would participate in money bowling leagues if a handicap structure wasn't implemented.  Why would a 160 average bowler pay money to compete straight up with a 220 average bowler?

Handicaps keep the playing field fairly level and allow everyone to participate and have a fair shot at winning.  Most bowling leagues use an 80% handicapping system so in the above example, the 25 handicapper wouldn't get 27 strokes he'd get 21 or 22.  80% seems to be a good normalizer and allows people of varying levels to compete fairly.  The system is only as good as the accuracy of the handicaps.  If people are carrying vanity handicaps or are sand baggers then the results will be skewed.

[The following is off-topic and in regards to the bowling handicap statement above]

I completely agree with you here, being a current league bowler myself. The only time I bitch about the system is when I'm in that situation that you used as an example. Currently, right now, I'm at a 218. I usually maintain 215-220. Last year, I was forced to bowl an individual who averaged 136 and I was 222 at the time. Now I was giving this guy like 60 (65 I think, almost 70). He turns around and goes well beyond his means and puts up a 246 on me, making it virtually impossible to beat him. Had I have thrown a 300, I would still have lost by almost 11. With my personality though, I would have just been laughing all night and messing with the guy telling him he's a sandbagging bastard and should be giving ME pins (though we both know he was just really on and really lucky that night). Inside, I would still be really pissed if that happened though. I think I went like 230 something and lost outright anyway, so it really didn't matter much.

[sacm3bill]

I use my HC to measure my progress, and not much else. I entered a couple tournaments my first year of golfing, but never got any satisfaction from beating someone who shot better (or losing to someone who shot worse), simply because of the handicaps. Don't get me wrong - I think the HC system is a very accurate way to measure the potential of a golfer, and a great way to allow golfers of different ability to compete in tournaments (as long as they are flighted properly), but I don't have any desire to compete in handicapped tournaments. Hopefully someday I'll be good enough to have a chance in the non-handicapped flights.

There is one other situation where I use my handicap other than measuring my progress, and that is in friendly competitions with my playing partners. Unfortunately, most of my regular playing partners don't want to compete when they golf (not even for small stakes like a dollar a hole or the post-round beers.)  For that reason most of my rounds with friends are kind of boring.

[walk18]

I use mine for tournaments. IMO, all tournaments should have a prize for gross in addition to net, because as was mentioned, good golfers should be rewarded for a good round.

[x129]

Your friend shouldn't expect to win a handicap event.  Your +1 and your 30 have roughly the same chance to win an since there are a zillion more 30 out there, they always seem to win.

Golf is supposed to be fun for the club. Gross golf is fun for the 5 members between +1-2 who might have a legitmate shot to win on any given day. It isn't much fun for the 10-30 that has zero chance of winning. Given that why would they pay extra for the tournament instead of just playing a round with friends?  Because net golf gives them a chance to have fun. You don't like net golf. Great. There are a ton of gross events out there (state amateurs, a  zillion minitours and so on) to enjoy.

Originally Posted by Shorty

iI have a friend off a +1 and he can shoot 4 under and barely win a ball.  He doesn't expect to win the handicap events.

And you're right - your club compettions are flawed.  I'm guessing the committee members aren't playing of +2

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by x129

Your friend shouldn't expect to win a handicap event.  Your +1 and your 30 have roughly the same chance to win an since there are a zillion more 30 out there, they always seem to win.

Golf is supposed to be fun for the club. Gross golf is fun for the 5 members between +1-2 who might have a legitmate shot to win on any given day. It isn't much fun for the 10-30 that has zero chance of winning. Given that why would they pay extra for the tournament instead of just playing a round with friends?  Because net golf gives them a chance to have fun. You don't like net golf. Great. There are a ton of gross events out there (state amateurs, a  zillion minitours and so on) to enjoy.

You have quoted me by mistake, I believe.

[michaeljames92]

Our club comps usually field at least 170-180 guys per saturday and about the same for wednesdays.

Originally Posted by x129

Your friend shouldn't expect to win a handicap event.  Your +1 and your 30 have roughly the same chance to win an since there are a zillion more 30 out there, they always seem to win.

Golf is supposed to be fun for the club. Gross golf is fun for the 5 members between +1-2 who might have a legitmate shot to win on any given day. It isn't much fun for the 10-30 that has zero chance of winning. Given that why would they pay extra for the tournament instead of just playing a round with friends?  Because net golf gives them a chance to have fun. You don't like net golf. Great. There are a ton of gross events out there (state amateurs, a  zillion minitours and so on) to enjoy.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by michaeljames92

Our club comps usually field at least 170-180 guys per saturday and about the same for wednesdays.

That seems about average from what I've experienced.

A lot of clubs have fields of over 200 on Saturdays and Wednesdays during daylight saving months.

[x129]

The number of people playing doesn't really matter does it?  If all 200 guys are +-5 strokes of each other, you can have a fun gross tournament. If there are 5 guys at scratch or better, 20 single digits and 175 doubles, most of the field isn't playing to win in a gross competition. With a lot of people you can do flights but that has some of the same issues as handicapping.

Originally Posted by michaeljames92

Our club comps usually field at least 170-180 guys per saturday and about the same for wednesdays.

[bunkerputt]

I use it like a skill level rating system, to see how well I'm scoring and whether it's trending up or down.  For example, two months ago, I was around 4.6, then I started working on my swing a lot and it went up to 6.9.  Most of that was from not practicing putting.  It gives me some idea of how focus and swing changes affect your overall scoring game that I wouldn't have otherwise.  It also gives you more accurate scoring expectations which takes a lot of pressure off and helps you perform well.  I'll take the guy who knows his handicap and how to apply it to a course rating to estimate his score better than someone who says "I usually shoot in the 80s", to estimate the score closer any day of the week.  Often someone will ask, "What kind of scores do you shoot?".  I just tell them my handicap.  I could say that "I usually shoot par" (thinking of a course with a 65.2/110 course rating), but that would be misleading, i.e. a lie.  Telling them a handicap gives them more truthful information about my skill level, which is really what they are getting at.

[kevin.chan]

In some places such as Malaysia, they break the Competetion to 2 or 3 Groups and use handicap to net the gross score. For example, Medal A for Handicap 0 to 12 Medal B for Handicap > 12 Some clubs have 3 handicap groups for Competetion Medal A for 0 to 8 Medal B for 9 to 16 Medal C for > 16 IMO, I think the above system is fair .

[Gresh24]

For thse of you using it to track your own score, doesn't using the best 10 of your last 20 rounds kind of defeat the purpose?  Wouldn't your handicap always be a false representation of your ability?  Especially for higher cappers.