So much for lessons.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

I have to admire your patience Erik. Rehashing the same stuff to the same people that clearly want to miss the point must get real tiring.

Originally Posted by iacas

I don't know that I agree with that. I like it when people play devil's advocate. Even if it's the same people all the time. :-)

I have to agree with Erik on this one because agreeing with Erik is not a FUNDAMENTAL of this forum! As far as devil's advocates go, they are clearly lining both sides of the fairway.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

I have to agree with Erik on this one because agreeing with Erik is not a FUNDAMENTAL of this forum! As far as devil's advocates go, they are clearly lining both sides of the fairway.

Nobody said it was. It's just there are so many threads with different titles but the same content. I reckon you are all simply cutting and pasting now.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Nobody said it was. It's just there are so many threads with different titles but the same content. I reckon you are all simply cutting and pasting now.

"You are all" is a little vague...come on Pharaoh, who are you really referring to?

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

"You are all" is a little vague...come on Pharaoh, who are you really referring to?

I thought it was fairly obvious. If you read through the thread, you quickly see the same ******** Evolution people and the same devil's advocates going at it. I guess it's OK though as there are new people joining the forum all the time.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

I thought it was fairly obvious. If you read through the thread, you quickly see the same ******** Evolution people and the same devil's advocates going at it. I guess it's OK though as there are new people joining the forum all the time.

Ok, that is fair and I agree with you.  I tend to avoid certain threads and topics, but I got sucked into this one. You have to like my FUNDAMENTAL comment though.  It shows that I did learn something. LOL.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

I thought it was fairly obvious. If you read through the thread, you quickly see the same ******** Evolution people and the same devil's advocates going at it. I guess it's OK though as there are new people joining the forum all the time.

Would you prefer that everyone have the exact same ideas about golf, and how best to play it? There have been a number of  other "devil's advocates" (I assume you put me in that category, no?) who used to post here, and provided what I thought was good insightful information.  They have left, because of the bashing they got whenever their viewpoint differs from the majority here. It just wasn't worth it to them to stay.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Ok, that is fair and I agree with you.  I tend to avoid certain threads and topics, but I got sucked into this one. You have to like my FUNDAMENTAL comment though.  It shows that I did learn something. LOL.

True, we all get sucked into them from time to time! I did like the FUNDAMENTAL comment, very clever.

I wonder why "p r o - G o l f" was ********

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Ok, that is fair and I agree with you.  I tend to avoid certain threads and topics, but I got sucked into this one. You have to like my FUNDAMENTAL comment though.  It shows that I did learn something. LOL.

I gave you a thumbs up!

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

I wonder why "p r o - G o l f" was ********

Just the system playing devil's advocate

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Would you prefer that everyone have the exact same ideas about golf, and how best to play it?

Not at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harmonious

(I assume you put me in that category, no?)

You did come to mind, yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harmonious

There have been a number of other "devil's advocates" (I assume you put me in that category, no?) who used to post here, and provided what I thought was good insightful information. They have left, because of the bashing they got whenever their viewpoint differs from the majority here. It just wasn't worth it to them to stay.

They obviously had very little facts to back up their arguments. Or faced with overwhelming evidence, converted very quickly.

All I'm saying is that it appears every second thread is the same discussion. Hence, my comment to Erik. "The number one fundamental is low point in front of the ball", "No, it isn't, it's the grip/posture/alignment", "No it isn't, it's low point in front of the ball", "No it isn't, it's......................" etc. repeat ad nauseam.

[sean_miller]

Was someone saying that having the swing bottom in a repeatable position beyond the ball was not the number one fundamental? I missed that thread.

Or is it chic to suggest people who worry about grip and alignment are too stupid to know that impact is still the most important thing in golf even if they never said otherwise?!?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

There have been a number of  other "devil's advocates" (I assume you put me in that category, no?) who used to post here, and provided what I thought was good insightful information. They have left, because of the bashing they got whenever their viewpoint differs from the majority here. It just wasn't worth it to them to stay.

Send me a PM if you'd like, but you keep saying things like this and your version of history doesn't quite match the reality.

Anyway, this is getting old. Everyone needs a grip, stance, and alignment. Nobody disagrees with that. Additionally, your grip, stance, and alignment can affect your swing and/or your shot. Duh.

But depending on how you define "fundamental" (we've shifted to calling it a "commonality" because "fundamental" isn't quite right), everyone has the potential to be correct.

Maybe the Golf Evolution groupies missed the memo on that one. It's "commonality" now, not "fundamental." There's no "commonality" among the grips of the game's best, but they all have the commonality of striking the ball solidly.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

They obviously had very little facts to back up their arguments. Or faced with overwhelming evidence, converted very quickly.

No, they obviously got tired of the sniping from those who couldn't stand variance from their dogma.  At least, that's what they told me when I PM'ed them and encouraged them to stay, in spite of the bashing they received.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

No, they obviously got tired of the sniping from those who couldn't stand variance from their dogma.  At least, that's what they told me when I PM'ed them and encouraged them to stay, in spite of the bashing they received.

I'm not particularly a fan of the subtle attacks - "dogma" for example, to discuss something that's clearly an opinion (and an opinion based on a definition that isn't held in common) - and think this thread should get back on topic now. That topic is:

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

Played 18 today. Working on some major changes to my swing so given that I didnt do too bad. Lots of bogeys and doubles with a few pars.

So on the second 9 holes there is this couple who clearly had never golfed before. 4 hours later and they werent even finished with the FIRST 9 holes....and this is a VERY short course....6 par three's and 3 par fours. All shorter holes. Nothing you couldnt sneeze hard and hit the pin from the tee on.

This couple is holding everyone else up, but the group in front of us wont ask them if they can play through because they had kids about six  years old or so who couldnt play but were all hitting balls.

Imagine 3 six year old kids who are hitting the ball about 25 feet at a time whos parents wont just help them along and who cant putt at all but are putting over and over again till they finally luck out and get it in the whole.

Now, Im ok with slow players in front of me, but my nephew had to work this afternoon and the guy we ended up playing with seemed like he was about to go on a murder rampage or something. He's cussing the ball, cussing his clubs, cussing the course, cussing the golf gods and then cussing because he's cussing. I was waiting to see if he'd toss his clubs in the pond or something.

So we're up on the second to last hole and he's telling me about this great instructing school he went to for 8 weeks.

Hmm.

Guy, Ive been sticking them better than you and putting just as good as you and my game inside 100 yards is 3 times better than yours....and I just made major swing changes and today is the first day Ive tried them on the course.

If after EIGHT weeks this is where your lessons have gotten you....barely able to keep up with a guy who hasnt had lessons and who has just changed everything about his swing, then I think I'll pass on the suggestion that I try out the golf school you graduated from.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

I certainly enjoy hearing different opinions, personally.

What I dont like is when someone pushes what THEY believe as absolutely the only right way to do something when its clear that things like golf, building websites and many other things have a number of 'right' (or simply not 'wrong') ways to achieve the same results.

When I played the other day I thought what the hell, Im going to try a split grip this shot instead of overlapping.

Popped the ball right up on the green about 8' from the hole. Just as good a shot as I can make with the overlapping or interlocking grip, so what is the 'right' way if the ends are all the same.

There are few things in life that are absolute. I like it that way. We can be creative and find new ways of doing things we enjoy.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

I certainly enjoy hearing different opinions, personally.

What I dont like is when someone pushes what THEY believe as absolutely the only right way to do something when its clear that things like golf, building websites and many other things have a number of 'right' (or simply not 'wrong') ways to achieve the same results.

I agree. Facts can be right and wrong. Opinions are opinions. There are surprisingly few "facts" surrounding the golf swing. There are a lot of opinions. Some are well founded, some are not. I encourage everyone to share their opinions and do their best to back them up.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I was a sweeper / nipper of the ball for years. I played better out the short rough and off baked fairways than perfect lies on lush heavily irrigated fairways. I struck the ball well most days, but was inconsistent and erred on the side of thinning the ball. Thin shots tend to travel a similar distance overall, but flatter and with less spin (sidespin and back spin - there's a reason old guys say "thin to win") .

Switching to a more ascending blow with a swing bottom farther ahead was actually an easier transition than weakening my right hand position was the summer before.

ymmv and all that

I'm a nipper on many days myself, unless for whatever reason, my swing goes bad and the fat shots start to creep in. When I start to flip too much and throw my right arm at it, I tend to take big divots, too often behind the golf ball. But more often than not, I'm slightly thinning everything from a perfect fairway lie and doing my best with that kind of contact.

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Keep in mind that when I say "consistent" I mean it was at least as consistent as my previous target (essentially just beyond the ball) and I think that years of playing was certainly a factor. That's probably why for me, ball position, alignment, and grip changes are significant. When I was a pure beginner by comparison, I probably wouldn't have noticed those changes because my swing shape, and subsequently my swing bottom, were all over the map.

You make a good point here. As a newerish player, grip, stance, and alignment changes were more or less welcomed with open arms by me, as were really any other mechanical changes. I often try to imagine how I would approach golf in today's world had I started playing say 20 years ago, with a fully engrained setup and overall routine. I should have taken that into account.

Originally Posted by iacas

Maybe the Golf Evolution groupies missed the memo on that one. It's "commonality" now, not "fundamental."

Lol! Noted.

PS- Get ready for a Justin Beiberesque paternity test that will shortly be coming your way from my lawyers.

[TourSpoon]

Thin to win...I am on the thinner side (as my miss) and find that the distance is relatively the same as Sean pointed out, but that is with mid-long irons.  With the scoring irons (esp. wedges), I rarely thin one because then you are over the green. Most courses that I play, over the green means bogey as you really have your work cut out for you.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by iacas

Anyway, this is getting old.

Which was the point I was making.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

But depending on how you define "fundamental" (we've shifted to calling it a "commonality" because "fundamental" isn't quite right), everyone has the potential to be correct.

Maybe the Golf Evolution groupies missed the memo on that one. It's "commonality" now, not "fundamental." There's no "commonality" among the grips of the game's best, but they all have the commonality of striking the ball solidly.

Yeah, must have missed that memo. Commonality it is then.