My Swing (Ernest Jones)

[cipher]

Thus, my question to Mike.  Why doesn't it work for most golfers? If you can roll into that flat-left-wrist position early in the downswing (not last minute, as you state) why wouldn't you? People used to say that the sound of Hogan's irons were like no other.  Was this the reason why? I'm going to try it out at the range today. I'll report back why or why not (at least for me).

IMO because it requires the golfer to get into that goofy overly cupped left wrist position at the top, and creates a huge loop in the swing.  Maybe it is just me, and I am vastly exaggerating the 99% but it makes things too complicated.  I don't think most golfers on the way down or from the top in cupped left wrist position can get into right wrist dorsiflexion fast enough to come from the inside.  Why not just go into right wrist dorsiflexion on the way back and have that be the one feel?  Why have two different wrist feels?  But if that is natural for someone then so be it.  Maybe I am wrong.

[Golfingdad]

IMO because it requires the golfer to get into that goofy overly cupped left wrist position at the top, and creates a huge loop in the swing.  Maybe it is just me, and I am vastly exaggerating the 99% but it makes things too complicated.  I don't think most golfers on the way down or from the top in cupped left wrist position can get into right wrist dorsiflexion fast enough to come from the inside.  Why not just go into right wrist dorsiflexion on the way back and have that be the one feel?  Why have two different wrist feels? Maybe I am wrong.

I agree with cipher here.  I tend to develop a cupped wrist on my backswing up to A4 and have to do the "revving" palmar flexion motion just like Ernest to try and get out of the cupped position.  I'd prefer to just avoid the extra movements altogether and have a flat left wrist the whole way through.  Simpler always seems preferable to me.  Less movement requires less timing and fewer things that can go wrong.

[mvmac]

Mike - What are your thoughts on the above video labelled "The Goods"? I'm not sure I could get my hands into that position on the downswing, but it sounds intriguing. And Hogan definitely did in his swing.

Sure you could, just takes time and practice.  Lee Trevino had the same movement of the arms and shaft on the downswing.  Here's a video I made for someone that "pulls" the handle down, increases the flex in their right elbow on the downswing.  All I'm doing is "pitching" my my right even more on the downswing as I transfer and open.  Club head is low and inside at A6, forces me to use the ground to thrust and result is a shallow angle of attack with the path out to the right.

Regarding "The Goods" video, I think it's fine, little silly for my taste with the "Shangri La" and demonstrating the Martin Ayers right arm thing.  Funny that all these guys are looking for the Hogan secret but they don't consider the speed/athleticism to perform the "Hogan swing".  In other words getting into some arbitrary position that Hogan hit doesn't guarantee I'm going to hit the ball better.

I also have a more general practice question for Mike and/or @iacas. Trying to remain as "stupid" as possible...some times I get the shaft laid down nicely but still hit A6 with my clubhead outside my hands, should I just ignore that for now and continue to work on that shaft or should I take the A6 position into consideration when evaluating a swing and the feels that produced it. Obviously I want my clubhead inside my hands at A6 but should I be consciously working on that or will steady improvement of the shafts orientation through A5 start to fix A6 as a by-product? I'm easily side-tracked and really want to make sure I stay focused on the right priority.

Just keep working on what you're doing.  Slow practice swings, feeling that shaft shallow out, right elbow lower than your left, you know the routine.

Guys IMO the video is nothing new.  AKA Flat Left wrist, and is key for an inline impact/forward shaft lean.  Almost every good golfer has the look and has for a long time.  He is making a simple concept way more complicated than in needs to be with the silly baseball roll at the top.  For me I prefer to gradually straighten the left wrist on the way back felling right wrist dorsiflexion.  The last minute roll that he is talking about in the video, I don't see working for 99% of golfers.

Yeah I would say for most golfers what the wrist angles are doing isn't really a priority and probably a cause of other pieces.

[Ernest Jones]

Ok thanks @mvmac , will do.

[JetFan1983]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Mike - What are your thoughts on the above video labelled "The Goods"? I'm not sure I could get my hands into that position on the downswing, but it sounds intriguing. And Hogan definitely did in his swing.

Sure you could, just takes time and practice.  Lee Trevino had the same movement of the arms and shaft on the downswing.  Here's a video I made for someone that "pulls" the handle down, increases the flex in their right elbow on the downswing.  All I'm doing is "pitching" my my right even more on the downswing as I transfer and open.  Club head is low and inside at A6, forces me to use the ground to thrust and result is a shallow angle of attack with the path out to the right.

Regarding "The Goods" video, I think it's fine, little silly for my taste with the "Shangri La" and demonstrating the Martin Ayers right arm thing.  Funny that all these guys are looking for the Hogan secret but they don't consider the speed/athleticism to perform the "Hogan swing".  In other words getting into some arbitrary position that Hogan hit doesn't guarantee I'm going to hit the ball better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

I also have a more general practice question for Mike and/or @iacas. Trying to remain as "stupid" as possible...some times I get the shaft laid down nicely but still hit A6 with my clubhead outside my hands, should I just ignore that for now and continue to work on that shaft or should I take the A6 position into consideration when evaluating a swing and the feels that produced it. Obviously I want my clubhead inside my hands at A6 but should I be consciously working on that or will steady improvement of the shafts orientation through A5 start to fix A6 as a by-product? I'm easily side-tracked and really want to make sure I stay focused on the right priority.

Just keep working on what you're doing.  Slow practice swings, feeling that shaft shallow out, right elbow lower than your left, you know the routine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cipher

Guys IMO the video is nothing new.  AKA Flat Left wrist, and is key for an inline impact/forward shaft lean.  Almost every good golfer has the look and has for a long time.  He is making a simple concept way more complicated than in needs to be with the silly baseball roll at the top.  For me I prefer to gradually straighten the left wrist on the way back felling right wrist dorsiflexion.  The last minute roll that he is talking about in the video, I don't see working for 99% of golfers.

Yeah I would say for most golfers what the wrist angles are doing isn't really a priority and probably a cause of other pieces.

Good post, Mike. Thanks. Very good information.

[c peterich]

I'm impressed..great great great video Mvmac...makes me look outside of the hogan box. I did email christo a while back..and questioned why a twirl open/ twirl close swing.. Says it is for power. I do disagree with some issues in his video. I will try and keep this post easy to understand, I do go overboard Anyway, how I see it ..how we start is how we should continue. So if I palmar flexion in transition, what is to say I can't do this for the whole swing..alla Dustin Johnson. He looks like he is closing the face for the whole swing. Would eliminate excess manipulation, and would only focus on 1 motion not too.. Which is a term I heard " whatever you start with you end with,,," I think Palmar flexion ( closing ,face) would be easier than opening face on way down

[LuciusWooding]

[Ernest Jones]

Hard to break that tilty shoulders habit, starting to creep back in here.

[Abu3baid]

Hard to break that tilty shoulders habit, starting to creep back in here.

I suffer from that too.. I am not as deep as you are in working on this key, but I catch my self extremely tilted and the main reason for me is because I concentrate so much on getting my club laid down that I forget to move my weight forward, so I end up with a very tilted shoulder..

[JetFan1983]

@Ernest Jones Agreed. That a priority?

@mvmac looks like a friggin rail in that newest video BTW. Good job on your diet and exercise, man.

[Ernest Jones]

@Ernest Jones Agreed. That a priority?

What, eliminating the tilty shoulders? I went through a brain dead stretch for a while where I was achieving a very laid off shaft at A5 but I was doing it by tipping or tilting my shoulders and torso, kinda faking it, instead of controlling it with my arms and wrists. It's BAD and I have to be careful I don't slip back into it, unfortunately I put lots of reps into that crappy move, the goods news is they weren't very effective reps ;-) Now when I do the motion correctly, using my wrists and arms, I don't have tilty shoulders. I'm not actively working on stopping the tilty action, I'm just working on feeling the shaft flatten out correctly and the tilty -ness goes away as a result. So, a priority? No but definitely something I monitor.

[JetFan1983]

Good stuff @Ernest Jones . Yea, James and I worked on fixing that over the summer and it was pretty tough work, but ultimately fixable of course. I think I got it down enough (no pun intended) because he hasn't mentioned it to me in a while. Just a guess though.

[Ernest Jones]

Good stuff @Ernest Jones. Yea, James and I worked on fixing that over the summer and it was pretty tough work, but ultimately fixable of course. I think I got it down enough (no pun intended) because he hasn't mentioned it to me in a while. Just a guess though.

Spent an hour on it this morning, slow mapping from A4 to A5, really feeling it in the wrists. It's working and improving but, damn, I think I need to get some of these

to strengthen my wrists, never worked them so hard before in the golf swing.

Or better yet, one of these, looks like it's made for a golfer:

[mvmac]

@mvmac looks like a friggin rail in that newest video BTW. Good job on your diet and exercise, man.

Yeah I have to re-film all my drill videos now lol

Spent an hour on it this morning, slow mapping from A4 to A5, really feeling it in the wrists. It's working and improving but, damn, I think I need to get some of these

to strengthen my wrists, never worked them so hard before in the golf swing.

I tend to feel it more with my elbows than my wrists.  Do you feel it more in your left or right wrist?

[Ernest Jones]

Yeah I have to re-film all my drill videos now lol

I tend to feel it more with my elbows than my wrists.  Do you feel it more in your left or right wrist?

Both to a certain extent, but mostly I feel like at A4 my left wrist "revs" around my right bending it back. I try to get it (the left one) bowed as much as I can and it's almost the sensation of "rolling under" on the way to A5 if that makes sense. It also feels like that bowing, rolling under motion drives the right elbow in more. I try to trigger this with my trail foot banking forward so my weight shifts.

I've also tried just bending the right back at A4 but the "rolling under" sensation seems to give the best result.

Last week I was feeling it in the trail elbow but that was last week .

[Abu3baid]

That is interesting, since I'm working on the same thing I didn't start doing it until I really felt it with my right wrist really just turning over to the inside.. Very strange feeling for sure!

[Ernest Jones]

That is interesting, since I'm working on the same thing I didn't start doing it until I really felt it with my right wrist really just turning over to the inside.. Very strange feeling for sure!

Yes, that's it. With the left wrist rolling under it as it turns. It feels like what the guy in "The Goods" video is talking about but I don't do the "claw" part because I agree with @cipher , seems totally extraneous. Anyway, it's been working for a while now so I'll stick with it.

[Ernest Jones]

Slow reps this am before work and then I shot a couple of swings at 240fps.

Still cheating with my shoulders a bit.