Joe Paterno and Penn State

[Kapanda]

Originally Posted by bwdial

This is so true.

Listening to some of the Penn State supporters try and defend Paterno's 'legacy' reminds me of a disturbing conversation I had with a German foreign exchange student a decade and a half ago.  Her father had been a high ranking official in East Germany before the wall came down, and her grandfather had been in "the party".  Never determined if she meant Nazi or Communist; or both.

Anyway, she actually tried to defend Hitler by saying that he "wasn't all bad" because he improved the infrastructure and "built roads and trains".

By the same tortured logic, Paterno isn't all that bad.

That's true though... it's hard to disagree with both of those statements. The same goes for almost anybody. Same way even Gandhi wasn't all good.

[bwdial]

Originally Posted by Kapanda

That's true though... it's hard to disagree with both of those statements. The same goes for almost anybody. Same way even Gandhi wasn't all good.

The bad outweighs the good when:

- you put millions of people in gas chambers, or

- you stand by and allow someone to rape little boys.

[Kapanda]

Originally Posted by bwdial

The bad outweighs the good when:

- you put millions of people in gas chambers, or

- you stand by and allow someone to rape little boys.

Nobody is denying that, and that's not the claim.

[Mr3Wiggle]

The way I see it, if Penn State wants to keep a statue around of a guy that allowed little kids to be molested...that says a lot about that place.

[bwdial]

Originally Posted by Kapanda

Nobody is denying that, and that's not the claim.

Actually, some are... and it is.

A lot of Penn State supporters are saying that all the good things Paterno did for the university outweigh the Sandusky situation.  Others agree with Jay Paterno and are saying that the Freeh report is simply a fabrication created to ruin a good man's name.  The level of denial in each of these opinions is staggering, but the latter over the top.  There's still a large segment of the PSU fanbase fretting over what JoePa's legacy will be, with nary a thought for the victims... until they get called out for it.

Now three more men have come out and said they were abused by Sandusky in the 1970s.  And, as expected the howling from this same group has erupted because they think that they are simply trying to cash in.  My opinion on that is, too bad! Paterno and the powers-that-be put your (the alums... not you) beloved institution in that position by harboring and enabling Sandusky for decades.  Crime statistics tell us that he's been preying on boys for a lot longer than the two-and-a-half decades since that first mother filed the complaint in 1998.  I have no doubt that many more will come forward, and I have no doubt that some of them will simply be looking to get rich.  However, Penn State lost the right to question the veracity of their claims by allowing it to go on.

[Mr3Wiggle]

PSU has begun the process of de-Paterno-ing itself.  PaternoVille has been renamed NittanyVille.  The artist of a mural depicting Paterno with a halo over his head, has removed the halo from the painting.  I'm sure this is just the beginning.  ESPN is also reporting that the NCAA is hinting at serious penalties.

[bwdial]

Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle

PSU has begun the process of de-Paterno-ing itself.  PaternoVille has been renamed NittanyVille.  The artist of a mural depicting Paterno with a halo over his head, has removed the halo from the painting.  I'm sure this is just the beginning.  ESPN is also reporting that the NCAA is hinting at serious penalties.

That's because the Board of Trustees understand the gravity of the situation.  The rank and file Paterno-phile doesn't.

I saw that about PaternoVille last night on Yahoo.  Someone suggested they call it "NamblaVille"

[Spyder]

This is about much more than football - well, at least to anyone with a shred of morals and common decency. Put aside your love of football for 2 minutes and open your damn eyes. Paterno was pathetic and the entire scandal is completely disgusting man.

Paterno did nothing while kids were raped and molested... that is one thing that no real man, or any man, would turn their shoulder to.

It's simple - take everyone who was/is involved in covering things up, or the ones who knew but didn't do anything, and penalize them to the max. Ban them from all government/state/city institutions across the country and fine them to the point where they can't walk away and retire with millions. These sick bastards need to suffer and I hope Sandusky gets his in return times 10. How he hasn't already offed himself with a bed sheet boggles my mind.

[RonTheSavage]

This whole situation is sickening. After he found out Paterno did nothing to prevent future victims from this monster. In my opinion he is just as responsible. And this guy is still worshipped by people?

Success with honor huh? What a sick joke

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by RonTheSavage

This whole situation is sickening. After he found out Paterno did nothing to prevent future victims from this monster. In my opinion he is just as responsible. And this guy is still worshipped by people?

Success with honor huh? What a sick joke

The blind worship for Paterno will do more to destroy that university's reputation than the actual scandal will.  The scandal can be limited to the few bad people.  The worship of Paterno is a much bigger issue involving much of the alumni and supporters.

[inthehole]

It would be one thing if paterno witnessed the abuse. He obviously didn't react to what someone told him Sandusky did - which is where he failed. From the tone of these posts many seem to put him on par with Sandusky - I disagree with that. Alot actually. I have my reasons being a long time PA resident & all that he did in his career - not just football, cheritable things as well. He was just an old man that didn't fully understand the gravity of the circumstances - I think if he knew the extent of the Sandusky abuses, he would have reacted differently. Argue if you want - but don't put him on the same level as sandusky

[newtogolf]

Did Paterno molest any kids, no, but could he have taken actions that prevented kids in the future from being molested, yes he could have.  IMO any of the kids that were raped and molested by Sandusky after Paterno was made aware of Sandusky's actions is just as much Paterno's responsibility as Sandusky, and in some cases more.  Sandusky is/was a sick man who obviously could not control his actions, Paterno knew this and did nothing to stop him.  Paterno, the AD, president, vice president, Board of Trustees, DA, Corbett and others that were involved in the cover up and profited from PSU football during those years should all go to jail and pay the victims out of their own pockets for pain and suffering.

As for PSU and the football program, forget the Death Penalty, the kids in the football program today weren't involved.  Shutting down PSU football will only hurt the current players, students in other sports that depend on the revenue brought in from the football program, schools that PSU plays, local businesses and PA taxpayers.   The people that need to be punished have been identified, do what you want to them, but leave the rest of the school alone IMO.

Originally Posted by inthehole

It would be one thing if paterno witnessed the abuse. He obviously didn't react to what someone told him Sandusky did - which is where he failed. From the tone of these posts many seem to put him on par with Sandusky - I disagree with that. Alot actually. I have my reasons being a long time PA resident & all that he did in his career - not just football, cheritable things as well. He was just an old man that didn't fully understand the gravity of the circumstances - I think if he knew the extent of the Sandusky abuses, he would have reacted differently. Argue if you want - but don't put him on the same level as sandusky

[Kapanda]

Originally Posted by bwdial

Actually, some are... and it is.

A lot of Penn State supporters are saying that all the good things Paterno did for the university outweigh the Sandusky situation.  Others agree with Jay Paterno and are saying that the Freeh report is simply a fabrication created to ruin a good man's name.  The level of denial in each of these opinions is staggering, but the latter over the top.  There's still a large segment of the PSU fanbase fretting over what JoePa's legacy will be, with nary a thought for the victims... until they get called out for it.

Now three more men have come out and said they were abused by Sandusky in the 1970s.  And, as expected the howling from this same group has erupted because they think that they are simply trying to cash in.  My opinion on that is, too bad!  Paterno and the powers-that-be put your (the alums... not you) beloved institution in that position by harboring and enabling Sandusky for decades.  Crime statistics tell us that he's been preying on boys for a lot longer than the two-and-a-half decades since that first mother filed the complaint in 1998.  I have no doubt that many more will come forward, and I have no doubt that some of them will simply be looking to get rich.  However, Penn State lost the right to question the veracity of their claims by allowing it to go on.

But you can see the difference between this claim and claiming that it wasn't all bad, right?

[clubchamp]

Originally Posted by inthehole

It would be one thing if paterno witnessed the abuse. He obviously didn't react to what someone told him Sandusky did - which is where he failed. From the tone of these posts many seem to put him on par with Sandusky - I disagree with that. Alot actually. I have my reasons being a long time PA resident & all that he did in his career - not just football, cheritable things as well. He was just an old man that didn't fully understand the gravity of the circumstances - I think if he knew the extent of the Sandusky abuses, he would have reacted differently. Argue if you want - but don't put him on the same level as sandusky

I grew up close to PSU and I understand the level of worship the PSU fans give him but they might be naive. The highlighted part is where you lose me in the argument at some point he had to fully understand I mean you can't really think he didn't understand. McQueary told him what he saw, Paterno and the AD discussed it multiple times yet you really believe JoePA never understood how serious of a problem they were covering up? To be clear I don't put him nearly on the same level as Sandusky but he shouldn't be worshiped by naive fans and keep a great legacy because he did good things but failed to act when it matter most.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle

The blind worship for Paterno will do more to destroy that university's reputation than the actual scandal will.  The scandal can be limited to the few bad people.  The worship of Paterno is a much bigger issue involving much of the alumni and supporters.

The blind worship of Paterno and PSU football is exactly what MADE this whole thing possible.  And THAT is why the death penalty is warranted for PSU football.  Yeah some innocents will be hurt by that.  But nowhere near as much as those innocent boys were hurt by the culture that allowed this to be covered up and continued for 15+ years.  The blind worship culture has to be stamped out at PSU, not just for PSU's sake but as a cautionary tale for every other University where it exists.  And it does exist elsewhere - a lot of elsewheres.  They just haven't (yet?) been put to the same test as PSU.  But allowing criminals to continue on a college football team in the name of winning, as has happened at a lot of schools is far too common, even if generally less egregious than what happned at PSU.  Only 10 division 1 universities have not had NCAA problems with their programs.

Parenthetically, I wonder how many of the people that are still supportive of Paterno and PSU football excoriate Tiger for his failings, even though his did not involve any direct physical harm to anyone?

[Spyder]

Please tell me that you guys are joking? "He was just an old man that ..............................". Insert whatever you want after that.

The guy did not have dementia, he was not senile. He was a perfectly sane human being with a functioning mind and body.

If a man witnesses a rape on the street and walks past it and does not help the victim, is that man that walked past not just as pathetic as the so called "man" committing the act? I'm sorry, but I've heard many people in PA try to defend this guy with every argument that you can possibly think of. Infinite illogical arguments have come up. One that I heard even went like this - "Paterno was from the old school and didn't snitch". Snitch? Listen, snitch is something very minor like "Man I just saw this guy smoking some sticky in his back yard... I'm gonna call the cops". That is snitching.

I seriously get sick when I hear these crazy ass arguments and I'm sorry if I come off out of character from my many posts on this board, but this is where my jokes stop and I have to sit back and scratch my head at some of you guys defending that rotten sob.

Just please think on this one line for me if you're skipping over this post and you're a Paterno backer, defender or apologist. If I donate millions to charity, help old women cross the street, give money and clothes to people and build my community's morale and economy up for 50 years, would those 50 years classify me as a good person if I don't report the torture of nearly 12 children?

You could honestly sit back and say... well hey, the guy was a god to us for 50 years... so what he didn't report child rape. You PSU fans/alumni are really delusional and quite frankly, insane. You guys got crazy with tOSU when the Jim Tressel/Pryor scandal came out and it was all fun and games and hilarious. Ours was football related and revolved around kids selling objects they owned to provide for their families and get access to some luxuries in life. Your scandal involved damn near more counts of child abuse than Paterno's age, and he helped to cover it up... and you still back PSU and Paterno?

I'm done with this thread, I can't wrap my mind around it.

[Gresh24]

Originally Posted by Spyder

Please tell me that you guys are joking? "He was just an old man that ..............................". Insert whatever you want after that.

The guy did not have dementia, he was not senile. He was a perfectly sane human being with a functioning mind and body.

If a man witnesses a rape on the street and walks past it and does not help the victim, is that man that walked past not just as pathetic as the so called "man" committing the act? I'm sorry, but I've heard many people in PA try to defend this guy with every argument that you can possibly think of. Infinite illogical arguments have come up. One that I heard even went like this - "Paterno was from the old school and didn't snitch". Snitch? Listen, snitch is something very minor like "Man I just saw this guy smoking some sticky in his back yard... I'm gonna call the cops". That is snitching.

I seriously get sick when I hear these crazy ass arguments and I'm sorry if I come off out of character from my many posts on this board, but this is where my jokes stop and I have to sit back and scratch my head at some of you guys defending that rotten sob.

Just please think on this one line for me if you're skipping over this post and you're a Paterno backer, defender or apologist. If I donate millions to charity, help old women cross the street, give money and clothes to people and build my community's morale and economy up for 50 years, would those 50 years classify me as a good person if I don't report the torture of nearly 12 children?

You could honestly sit back and say... well hey, the guy was a god to us for 50 years... so what he didn't report child rape. You PSU fans/alumni are really delusional and quite frankly, insane. You guys got crazy with tOSU when the Jim Tressel/Pryor scandal came out and it was all fun and games and hilarious. Ours was football related and revolved around kids selling objects they owned to provide for their families and get access to some luxuries in life. Your scandal involved damn near more counts of child abuse than Paterno's age, and he helped to cover it up... and you still back PSU and Paterno?

I'm done with this thread, I can't wrap my mind around it.

Agree 100%.  Those that can still, at this point, make excuses for Paterno are sickening and astonishing.

[newtogolf]

PSU football is not to blame, Sandusky, Paterno, the athletic director, the president, vice president, district attorney, board of trustees, Corbett and anyone else that knew what Sandusky was doing and did nothing to stop it are the ones to blame.  If you penalize PSU football with the death penalty you punish kids that had nothing to do with it.  PSU football earns $53M a year which funds all of the other universities sports programs, giving PSU football the death penalty is basically a death penalty to the entire schools athletics.  It also punishes the other schools in the Big 10 that already have PSU on their home schedule, and all the vending and local businesses that depend on PSU football for business.

The PSU football program isn't at fault it's the money hungry administrators I've identified above that lost sight of their priorities who need to be punished.  The crimes Sandusky committed have nothing to do with the NCAA, they need to stay out of it IMO.

Originally Posted by turtleback

The blind worship of Paterno and PSU football is exactly what MADE this whole thing possible.  And THAT is why the death penalty is warranted for PSU football.  Yeah some innocents will be hurt by that.  But nowhere near as much as those innocent boys were hurt by the culture that allowed this to be covered up and continued for 15+ years.  The blind worship culture has to be stamped out at PSU, not just for PSU's sake but as a cautionary tale for every other University where it exists.  And it does exist elsewhere - a lot of elsewheres.  They just haven't (yet?) been put to the same test as PSU.  But allowing criminals to continue on a college football team in the name of winning, as has happened at a lot of schools is far too common, even if generally less egregious than what happned at PSU.  Only 10 division 1 universities have not had NCAA problems with their programs.

Parenthetically, I wonder how many of the people that are still supportive of Paterno and PSU football excoriate Tiger for his failings, even though his did not involve any direct physical harm to anyone?