Elbow Position and Its Effects on the Downswing

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

***

Unrelated to the above, but relevant to the topic:

Last night, I found this old thread from 2010 that Stretch started, asking about how to fix this (or at least, a very big aspect of it), and it correlated really nicely with this new feel I discovered and talked about above, as well as certain aspects of the OP. Check it out if you're looking to supplement your pitch elbow knowledge a little bit more.

EDIT: I removed my discussion about MORAD because I felt after posting that it wasn't as relevant to the conversation as I originally thought... and because I don't know enough about MORAD to talk about it.

First rule of MORAD is you do not talk about MORAD....Second rule of MORAD is to wear white high profile visors with a black line on the brim....Third Rule is that the Jaw line must be inclined at 35.75 degrees at P5.4 or the whole swing is ruined

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by mvmac

First rule of MORAD is you do not talk about MORAD....Second rule of MORAD is to wear white high profile visors with a black line on the brim....Third Rule is that the Jaw line must be inclined at 35.75 degrees at P5.4 or the whole swing is ruined

Phil McGleno =

Mac O'Grady =

[mvmac]

hahaha that's seems about right

ok, back on topic lol

[Phil McGleno]

Say my name three times and I'll appear and quiz you on the 19 checkpoints of each position. Cant get at least 16 by your third try Youre OUT!

[Golfingdad]

So, was working on this again at the range yesterday, and I was trying to feel a bowed left wrist at the top of the backswing with the thinking that it would, in turn, cause the elbow to be more tucked in.  Does this make sense?

A bowed left wrist is not one of the feelings in the OP, but I'm wondering if it's an acceptable way to help me squezze my elbows together.

Thanks!

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

So, was working on this again at the range yesterday, and I was trying to feel a bowed left wrist at the top of the backswing with the thinking that it would, in turn, cause the elbow to be more tucked in.  Does this make sense?

A bowed left wrist is not one of the feelings in the OP, but I'm wondering if it's an acceptable way to help me squezze my elbows together.

Thanks!

What does it look like on film? If that feel gives you more pitch elbow then great.

In theory, I think there are a number of ways to feel pitch elbow, as demonstrated in the OP -- but based on my discovery that my trail arm was moving towards my shirt seam on the backswing the other night, I'm going to say that if that's your problem, feeling palmar flexion isn't going to help much. The elbow is simply too far out of position to get it back to where it needs to be. In that case, I think the best thing to accomplish pitch elbow is just to pre-set it in this position by never letting the upper trail arm get behind you. Then all it has to do is form on the downswing -- it doesn't have to travel there first and then form, if you get what I'm saying.

That said, I think feeling more palmar would work on improving it to some small degree as long as the elbow itself is in position to form the foundation of the pitch in the first place.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

What does it look like on film? If that feel gives you more pitch elbow then great.

In theory, I think there are a number of ways to feel pitch elbow, as demonstrated in the OP -- but based on my discovery that my trail arm was moving towards my shirt seam on the backswing the other night, I'm going to say that if that's your problem, feeling palmar flexion isn't going to help much. The elbow is simply too far out of position to get it back to where it needs to be. In that case, I think the best thing to accomplish pitch elbow is just to pre-set it in this position by never letting the upper trail arm get behind you. Then all it has to do is form on the downswing -- it doesn't have to travel there first and then form, if you get what I'm saying.

That said, I think feeling more palmar would work on improving it to some small degree as long as the elbow itself is in position to form the foundation of the pitch in the first place.

Yeah, I was experimenting with this as well.  I tried putting my right arm a little more in front of my body at A1 to get a bit of a head start and keep it from going to far behind me.

It was at the end of my range session yesterday and I was using the Golf MTRx app on my phone/camera at the time, so no video.  I'll get some tomorrow.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

So, was working on this again at the range yesterday, and I was trying to feel a bowed left wrist at the top of the backswing with the thinking that it would, in turn, cause the elbow to be more tucked in.  Does this make sense?

A bowed left wrist is not one of the feelings in the OP, but I'm wondering if it's an acceptable way to help me squezze my elbows together.

Thanks!

Feeling the right elbow more under at A4 could create a little more palmar/bowed, or vice versa.  I think it's a fine feeling to experiment with to see what it does to the elbows, you have some dorsi/cup in your left wrist normally.   Just make sure not to over do it, could get the face pointing too far left at impact.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Feeling the right elbow more under at A4 could create a little more palmar/bowed, or vice versa.  I think it's a fine feeling to experiment with to see what it does to the elbows, you have some dorsi/cup in your left wrist normally.   Just make sure not to over do it, could get the face pointing too far left at impact.

OK, thanks.  Tomorrow I will try and video myself doing this, and compare it to an old swing.  I suspect that what feels extremely bowed to me is probably, in reality, only a tiny bit less cupped. :)

[jefkve]

Been following this thread as my right arm is contributing to me getting accross the line at the top (see my MySwing vid for an example)....Was just perusing the instructional video thread and came accros MVMACs post which highlights one problem I'm having, which is the pain I get trying to stretch my shoulder to get into the right position...Right arm just doesnt want to stretch that direction....Anyone got any good stretches/flexibility drills for this???

[onephenom]

I seem to be able to accomplish the elbow position by trying to feel like i'm a waiter holding a tray. it's definitely not that steep, that analogy makes it sound like the elbow should go straight up and down, but it isn't. just feels like that's what is happening, puts my elbow in a great position even if my back swing isn't too great

[JetFan1983]

I know this isn't my My Swing Thread, but I wanted to briefly comment on today's range session working on this:

This wasn't the magic bullet I hoped it would be, but I took one important step forward. By not allowing my right arm get behind my shirt seam, I've conquered one unnecessary variable in my swing. The potential for pitch elbow has increased, and on video, my elbow is clearly below the left elbow at A5 now. There is no question this was a critical change for me, controlling the location of my upper right arm on the backswing.

Through further study just now of my swings today, I realized that my right shoulder is too high and I'm running out of right arm at impact from the face-on view. It's no wonder I cannot retain the pitch elbow position and subsequent money wrist cock that accompanies it. It's amazing I can hit the ball as far as I do despite this major flaw. But now I see more reasons why I change the sweet spot path or lose control of the club face on my bad swings.

Again, I won't turn this into a thread about my swing, I just wanted to be clear about my issues now because I have been offering advice on this thread over the past couple of days. I'm going to have to work out how to lower the right shoulder and retain more right arm while also maintaining a steady head. If I can do that, I can hold onto the pitch elbow well into A6... I think.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

I know this isn't my My Swing Thread, but I wanted to briefly comment on today's range session working on this:

This wasn't the magic bullet I hoped it would be, but I took one important step forward. By not allowing my right arm get behind my shirt seam, I've conquered one unnecessary variable in my swing. The potential for pitch elbow has increased, and on video, my elbow is clearly below the left elbow at A5 now. There is no question this was a critical change for me, controlling the location of my upper right arm on the backswing.

Through further study just now of my swings today, I realized that my right shoulder is too high and I'm running out of right arm at impact from the face-on view. It's no wonder I cannot retain the pitch elbow position and subsequent money wrist cock that accompanies it. It's amazing I can hit the ball as far as I do despite this major flaw. But now I see more reasons why I change the sweet spot path or lose control of the club face on my bad swings.

Again, I won't turn this into a thread about my swing, I just wanted to be clear about my issues now because I have been offering advice on this thread over the past couple of days. I'm going to have to work out how to lower the right shoulder and retain more right arm while also maintaining a steady head. If I can do that, I can hold onto the pitch elbow well into A6... I think.

Actually, upon further analyzr review, this is not the only problem, and possibly not the priority. I get in-person lessons semi-regularly with a few instructors I am happy with, but decided I wanted even more information about my swing and how to fix it. I just signed up for evolvr.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Actually, upon further analyzr review, this is not the only problem, and possibly not the priority. I get in-person lessons semi-regularly with a few instructors I am happy with, but decided I wanted even more information about my swing and how to fix it. I just signed up for evolvr.

Awesome!  (I had assumed that you were already with them for some reason.  Not sure where I got that)  Anyways, I think you will like it.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Actually, upon further analyzr review, this is not the only problem, and possibly not the priority. I get in-person lessons semi-regularly with a few instructors I am happy with, but decided I wanted even more information about my swing and how to fix it. I just signed up for evolvr.

Awesome!  (I had assumed that you were already with them for some reason.  Not sure where I got that)  Anyways, I think you will like it.

I know its good because of Zeph, Stretch, UTTexas, etc. I've been following their swing progress for years now. I never got it because I am working with instructors in-person. In a perfect world, I'd work with an instructor every time I hit a ball on the range. Adding evolvr right now is just a no-brainer as I have just too many questions about my swing at the moment, and I want a different perspective on the things I'm working on, and hopefully, learning new things to work on, new feels, new thoughts, etc.

I understand I will have to learn a balance between what my Stack and Tilt handlers tell me and what evolvr tells me... and perhaps that's why I never got evolvr -- I didn't want to interfere or have the two philosophies clash. Hopefully you guys are okay with the fact that I work with other teachers too -- obviously this is something I need to learn how to juggle. But at the same time, I want as many opinions and perspectives on my issues, and how to go about fixing them, as possible. I feel I'm a pretty resourceful guy in general, so I should be able to figure this out.

EDIT: sorry for the off-topic. I'll do this with PMs and my my swing thread now.

[iacas]

Dave and I filmed a video yesterday about this. I'll have it edited and uploaded to YouTube later today, and by the time Dave gets around to publishing it.... expect it sometime in early 2015. ;)

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jefkve - Anyone got any good stretches/flexibility drills for this???

I have many.  Maybe I should start another thread on this as it is off topic.  But there are a bunch of exercises and I can't find good examples on the web.  I will create something on the fitness section.  Warning though, you must warm up and improving flexibility in your external rotatory cuff will take a while.

A good test to see if you need improvement is to stand with your back flat against the wall with your head touching the wall.  Raise your arms so your arms are 90 degrees from your sides with your elbows on the wall.  Now raise you hands like you are surrendering.  If you can't easily touch the wall with the back of your wrists, with nothing else moving, then you have restriction in your external rotator cuff.

Don't dismay though.  Most men have this issue as we age.  It is from all the throwing we did growing up.

[Ernest Jones]

I have many.  Maybe I should start another thread on this as it is off topic.  But there are a bunch of exercises and I can't find good examples on the web.  I will create something on the fitness section.  Warning though, you must warm up and improving flexibility in your external rotatory cuff will take a while.   A good test to see if you need improvement is to stand with your back flat against the wall with your head touching the wall.  Raise your arms so your arms are 90 degrees from your sides with your elbows on the wall.  Now raise you hands like you are surrendering.  If you can't easily touch the wall with the back of your wrists, with nothing else moving, then you have restriction in your external rotator cuff. Don't dismay though.  Most men have this issue as we age.  It is from all the throwing we did growing up.

I think you mean throwing up.