Diminished Outlandish Claims

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

Quote:

Wait, wait. Did someone just say they could never be scratch because they can't reach the 250yd requirement??

What requirement? I don't understand?

From USGA: "The male scratch golfer hits his tee shots an average of 250 yards and can reach a 470 yard hole in two shots."

My understanding is that you can have a zero handicap, but to be a scratch amateur you have to fill several other requirements, including averaging 250 off the tee.  Its frustrating, but I'll get to a zero cap before I let it get to me too bad.

I've never played with any low single digit cappers, let alone scratch, who didn't hit a driver > 250 and couldn't reach a 470 yard hole in 2. I also don't recall playing with anyone hitting shorter than that who'd ever claim to "feast on par 5s".  Then again I play at ~ 2800 feet so there's a full club right there.

[Hairy Feet]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I've never played with any low single digit cappers, let alone scratch, who didn't hit a driver > 250 and couldn't reach a 470 yard hole in 2. I also don't recall playing with anyone hitting shorter than that who'd ever claim to "feast on par 5s".  Then again I play at ~ 2800 feet so there's a full club right there.

I rarely exceed 250yds, and a 470yd par 4 is just about out of reach for me but I chip and putt like god............... that said I'm an old fat cripple now and although my long game is waning with age and infirmity I'll take on all-comers. Golf isn't just about length... note, at the risk of being flamed for bragging, my putting average for the season is 29.1 but best not say how poor my driving is now.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Hairy Feet

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I've never played with any low single digit cappers, let alone scratch, who didn't hit a driver > 250 and couldn't reach a 470 yard hole in 2. I also don't recall playing with anyone hitting shorter than that who'd ever claim to "feast on par 5s".  Then again I play at ~ 2800 feet so there's a full club right there.

I rarely exceed 250yds, and a 470yd par 4 is just about out of reach for me but I chip and putt like god............... that said I'm an old fat cripple now and although my long game is waning with age and infirmity I'll take on all-comers. Golf isn't just about length... note, at the risk of being flamed for bragging, my putting average for the season is 29.1 but best not say how poor my driving is now.

I'm not gonna debate whether or not a 5.2 index would qualify as low single digits, because I think we can all agree it's miles away from scratch. Still it sounds like you do have the potential to drive the ball 250 and if you're playing a course with a lot of 470 yard par 4s, perhaps moving up to the next set of tees would cross your mind?!? Regardless of your course length, it sounds like your putting and chipping skills are really really solid, and yet at 29 PPR, nothing unheard of. I buy those stats at face value. Others might call BS and ask for a video of those godlike putting and chipping skills, but not me.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

From USGA: "The male scratch golfer hits his tee shots an average of 250 yards and can reach a 470 yard hole in two shots."

My understanding is that you can have a zero handicap, but to be a scratch amateur you have to fill several other requirements, including averaging 250 off the tee.  Its frustrating, but I'll get to a zero cap before I let it get to me too bad.

I'm a USGA course rater (well, West Penn GA course rater). Those numbers are irrelevant for what's "actually" a scratch golfer. All those numbers impact is the course rating. If a course has a bunch of par 4s that are over 470 yards, the course rating will be higher than an identical course with par fours measuring 440 yards.

That's it. It's just used as a mathematical construct to plug into the equations which spit out the course rating.

[Kobey]

Originally Posted by iacas

I'm a USGA course rater (well, West Penn GA course rater). Those numbers are irrelevant for what's "actually" a scratch golfer. All those numbers impact is the course rating. If a course has a bunch of par 4s that are over 470 yards, the course rating will be higher than an identical course with par fours measuring 440 yards.

That's it. It's just used as a mathematical construct to plug into the equations which spit out the course rating.

Did you just simplify that?  I always figured that everything was taken into consideration on course ratings.  Does this mean that a par 4 that is 470 yards straight with a wide fairway would be rated higher than a 300 yard par 4 with a narrow tree lined fairway, a dogleg and a water hazard?  Or maybe I'm not even talking about the same thing you are.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by Kobey

Did you just simplify that?  I always figured that everything was taken into consideration on course ratings.

He did. Everything is taken into consideration for rating courses. This is why courses are constantly being re-rated in case a pond has been added or some trees have grown significantly. In Spain, they even take into account the type of weather normal to the area where the course is located.

[Lofty Lefty]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

From USGA: "The male scratch golfer hits his tee shots an average of 250 yards and can reach a 470 yard hole in two shots."

My understanding is that you can have a zero handicap, but to be a scratch amateur you have to fill several other requirements, including averaging 250 off the tee.  Its frustrating, but I'll get to a zero cap before I let it get to me too bad.

OK, now I get it. This is similar in Australia except it's 225m and a 430m hole in 2 (works out the same, pretty much). It's actually NOT a requirement for a player to hit these distances to be scratch, it's simply how they define the minimum and maximum lengths of par 3's, 4's and 5's.

A par 5, for example, would need to be minimum 431 metres.....

Because don't forget, our courses are measured and rated on scratch golfers, not pros.

[luu5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpter

My understanding was they measured by using a number of lines that would be equal to the number of shots it would take to reach a green in regulation (1 for a par 3, 2 for par 4). At this point I'm wondering if there is even a standard way most courses measure holes. IMO it should be center of tee box to center of fairway to center of green using as many lines as needed to reach a green in regulation.

If the courses have standard ratings then they must use standard way to measure holes. All this is explained in USGA HC manual.

Quote:

Each hole must be measured horizontally (air line) by an electronic measuring device (EMD), surveying instruments, or a global positioning system (GPS) from the permanent yardage marker for every teeing area on the golf course to the center of the green.

And doglegs:

Quote:

A hole with a dogleg must be measured on a straight line from the tee to the center of the fairway at the bend. If the pivot point is not easily discernible, select a pivot point that is approximately 250 (men) or 210 (women) yards from the set of tees played by the majority of golfers. The measurement must continue from that point on a straight line to the center of the green or to the next pivot point if applicable.

More here: http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-12/

[Kobey]

Decided to reopen this due to some recent information.  I finally got my swing speed measured and it was 85-90.  This was after not golfing for over 2 months and using whatever club they had there.  My launch angle and spin were right where they should be on the chart but it said my distance was only about 208 yards which would be about right for that swing speed according to information I could find on that.

I have been posting that I can drive 250-270.  That is from subtracting from the posted hole length.  So now I am confused.  Have I been unintentionally inflating the length of my drives or does the type of driver and ball I use make a big difference?  Or maybe I've already lost a bunch of speed in just a couple of months (Don't think that's it, I felt like i was hitting it just as good).

Now I absolutely must buy a GPS before next season so I can find out for sure.

[jamo]

I have been posting that I can drive 250-270.  That is from subtracting from the posted hole length.  So now I am confused.  Have I been unintentionally inflating the length of my drives or does the type of driver and ball I use make a big difference?

That's about the worst way to measure drives, short of blind guessing.

[Kobey]

Originally Posted by jamo

That's about the worst way to measure drives, short of blind guessing.

Yeah, but that's all I had to go on.  Guess I will find out for sure next year and if I find out I exaggerated, I'll buy everyone on the forum a beer.*

*OK, I'll admit that one was a blatant lie.

[sean_miller]

I can't believe how off the yardages are on American courses. It seems like an epidemic.

[boogielicious]

I use my rangefinder and point back to the tee to get my drive distance.  That and GPS are the only accurate way.

[poser]

I honestly have never really measured a drive of mine.  I know how far I hit because of a fitting with trackman and hitting on a fullswing golf simulator every once in a while.  With that said I once hit one over the moon.

[Grumpter]

Quote:

If the courses have standard ratings then they must use standard way to measure holes. All this is explained in USGA HC manual.

Then maybe someone else can come up with yardages that match the scorecard for this course?

Bella Vista Golf Course - Gilberstville, PA

Scorecard - http://www.bellavistagc.com/golfshop/course-information

USGA Rating - http://ncrdb.usga.org/NCRDB/courseTeeInfo.aspx?CourseID=28986 (the course city is incorrectly listed as Mainland, PA - they have a sister course in Mainland).

Hole 2 - 419 (measuring from back of tee to center green I get 395)

Hole 4 - 439 (measuring from back of tee to center green I get 427)

Hole 5 - 319 (measuring from back of tee to center green I get 300)

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Grumpter

Quote:

Originally Posted by luu5

If the courses have standard ratings then they must use standard way to measure holes. All this is explained in USGA HC manual.

Then maybe someone else can come up with yardages that match the scorecard for this course?

Bella Vista Golf Course - Gilberstville, PA

Scorecard - http://www.bellavistagc.com/golfshop/course-information

USGA Rating - http://ncrdb.usga.org/NCRDB/courseTeeInfo.aspx?CourseID=28986  (the course city is incorrectly listed as Mainland, PA - they have a sister course in Mainland).

Hole 2 - 419 (measuring from back of tee to center green I get 395)

Hole 4 - 439 (measuring from back of tee to center green I get 427)

Hole 5 - 319 (measuring from back of tee to center green I get 300)

I couldn't tell you since I don't use google maps (or whatever that is) and all I see on that golf course website is a lot of red Xs.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Grumpter

Quote:

Then maybe someone else can come up with yardages that match the scorecard for this course?

Bella Vista Golf Course - Gilberstville, PA

Scorecard - http://www.bellavistagc.com/golfshop/course-information

USGA Rating - http://ncrdb.usga.org/NCRDB/courseTeeInfo.aspx?CourseID=28986  (the course city is incorrectly listed as Mainland, PA - they have a sister course in Mainland).

Hole 2 - 419 (measuring from back of tee to center green I get 395)

Hole 4 - 439 (measuring from back of tee to center green I get 427)

Hole 5 - 319 (measuring from back of tee to center green I get 300)

I just did some quick GE measuring of those holes, and I get pretty close to the numbers you get. I.e., even when measuring to the back of the tee, the actual numbers are much less than the scorecard numbers. So unless they've significantly changed the tee boxes since the GE picture was taken, I'd say those scorecard numbers are way off.

But this is a great example of why people shouldn't rely on scorecard hole length as a way of measuring their shots.

[Grumpter]

Quote:

I just did some quick GE measuring of those holes, and I get pretty close to the numbers you get. I.e., even when measuring to the back of the tee, the actual numbers are much less than the scorecard numbers. So unless they've significantly changed the tee boxes since the GE picture was taken, I'd say those scorecard numbers are way off.

But this is a great example of why people shouldn't rely on scorecard hole length as a way of measuring their shots.

Well there is the possibility that Google Earths measurements are off. I did measure a local High Schools footbal field which should be 100 yards and came up with 99.78 yards. That still doesn't mean all Google Earth maps are that accurate.