My Swing (Beachcomber)

[jd924]

Not needed, you cleared it up for me. Can't wait to try this out!

[mvmac]

Ok may be the greatest post I've ever made

As I showed in my last post, Charlie Wi is working on getting the right forearm/elbow to work more vertically, more external rotation.  What would happen a few years ago is that the right elbow would get behind his shirt seam, effecting how everything was loading and unloading.  Very hard to create or sustain leverage when those arms over flex or when the arms can't release down.

What creates the hand depth is the knees changing flex, left shoulder working down and flexing of the right elbow.  Charlie almost counter rotates his forearms or did and that will tend to have the hands going more in, and vice versa, more forearm rotation early, hands tend to work out.  Charlie Wi vs Fred Couples from A1-2.

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

Regarding P2 (or A2)... It is pretty easy to hit A2 for me now... But it wasn't until I fully understood the some of the basic bio-mechanics, and checkpoints to look for to ensure I was hitting the proper positions and alignments.

The challenge then became how do I consistently hit A3 and A4.  I can do A3 and A4 proficiently by focusing and studying the wrist conditions that were required to hit these positions.  I think this is the mystery that many golfers miss, when they see a professionals swing the club.  They don't understand the subtle movements that are required to square the club at A2, and get it on plane at A3, A4 to A5, etc..

Look at Jason Dufner at A2.  For me, to get to A2 and beyond, all I think about is the following:

(1.) My left shoulder needs to ultimately move down under my chin.  (I know I've reached the top of my back swing when my shoulder is under my chin)

(2.) I keep a rigid and straight left arm by maintaining firm pressure points (1 through 4).

A lot of good points here.  What I'm about to describe is specific to certain components, specific to a certain pattern.  This is NOT what everyone needs to do to play good golf nor is it what I teach everyone.  Gotta make that clear lol

The video of where I got the pics above

Shawn working with Grant on that right elbow (I'm filming)

[Beachcomber]

Ok... That was a lot of information Mike! Thanks for the comments!

Now, let me try and make sense of this...

Quote:

Charlie almost counter rotates his forearms or did and that will tend to have the hands going more in, and vice versa, more forearm rotation early, hands tend to work out.

Counter rotating the forearms - would be maintaining the vertical forearm condition from A1 to A2 and up into A3.  Whereas my quickie video shows that I simply roll the left forearm early in start-up to enable the club to get on plane earlier.  This is what I was calling the horizontal wrist/forearm condition - rolling of the left forearm.  This ensures the club is parallel to the target and plane line at A2.

1.) The great way for me to check this is the butt of the grip will be facing the target.

2.) The rear of my left palm will be facing the camera at A2 while in Caddy view (face on)

3.) The clubface will be square at A2 - toe of the club will be pointing upward - more vertical like Dufner (versus Wie)

Quote:

To give this more meaning... We are talking about Pressure Point 5 (Right Armpit) - and what you are recommending is for a deeper discussion and understanding of the right forearm, elbow, bicep and tricep - is to understand that within Pressure Point 5, there are sub components?

So per your drawing... Another description would be:

PP#5.0 (Blue dot) = Right Armpit

PP#5.1 (Yellow dot) = Right Tricep/Bicep

PP#5.2 (Red dot) = Right Elbow

From my own personal feels...

The blue dot is constant pressure in the swing (both back and down).

The yellow dot is loading and unloading of the tricep/bicep - and its under the greatest load (pressure) at A4 (top of the swing)

The red dot is a load that I don't really feel... Maybe it is more in my right forearm, or is muted by the load in the bicep/tricep (yellow)??

I would even add PP#5.3 (X color) = Right Shoulder / Rotator... This is a weakness that I have from a previous injury.  (I believe I have tendinitis built up in that right shoulder as it pops a lot when I stretch or do rotator strengthening drills).  But I feel pressure in the right shoulder - which makes it difficult for me to keep that vertical right arm as shown in Grants clip referenced.  I'm much better than I was a year ago (look at my very first video in this thread - )... But still not as sound as it needs to be.

So looking at your response Mike, would you say that my two areas of focus should be:

1.) Right Forearm Takeaway - maintaining the proper placement of the right elbow and flex?

Moving onto the right arm takeaway - and the video with Grant.  Thanks for posting this clip as it helps remind me of how subtle the move really is... And I need to focus on this in my upcoming range sessions to ensure that my right elbow isn't tracing back behind my shirt seam, as it leads to issues on the downswing as mentioned by Grant and the Evolvr team.  Having the arms (right forearm takeaway is a key piece) in the proper place is instrumental in hitting into a firm left side as referenced in Dana's video.

2.) Hitting into a Firm Left Side?

I know I have work to do with the right leg collapsing or knee moving in toward the ball at impact.  And tilting back (too much secondary axis tilt).  Is this why you linked Dana's video?  If so, no prob.  I just wasn't clear how it tied into the A2 down to A5 discussion jd924/Golfingdad and I were having.

Thanks for the input!!

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

To give this more meaning... We are talking about Pressure Point 5 (Right Armpit) - and what you are recommending is for a deeper discussion and understanding of the right forearm, elbow, bicep and tricep - is to understand that within Pressure Point 5, there are sub components?

So per your drawing... Another description would be:

PP#5.0 (Blue dot) = Right Armpit

PP#5.1 (Yellow dot) = Right Tricep/Bicep

PP#5.2 (Red dot) = Right Elbow

Yes, correct, or you can call it PP#5.1, 5.2, 5.3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

So looking at your response Mike, would you say that my two areas of focus should be:

1.) Right Forearm Takeaway - maintaining the proper placement of the right elbow and flex?

Moving onto the right arm takeaway - and the video with Grant.  Thanks for posting this clip as it helps remind me of how subtle the move really is... And I need to focus on this in my upcoming range sessions to ensure that my right elbow isn't tracing back behind my shirt seam, as it leads to issues on the downswing as mentioned by Grant and the Evolvr team.  Having the arms (right forearm takeaway is a key piece) in the proper place is instrumental in hitting into a firm left side as referenced in Dana's video.

2.) Hitting into a Firm Left Side?

I know I have work to do with the right leg collapsing or knee moving in toward the ball at impact.  And tilting back (too much secondary axis tilt).  Is this why you linked Dana's video?  If so, no prob.  I just wasn't clear how it tied into the A2 down to A5 discussion jd924/Golfingdad and I were having.

Thanks for the input!!

Sorry that firm left side video had nothing to do with your swing, just showing where I got that pic of Dana with his hand in the student's rib cage.  For you, I'd say it's important to attach PP's 5.1-5.3 at A2 and keep the hips turning so the elbow doesn't slide behind the seam.  I'll show you Wed and add a piece that will help.

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

Ok... That was a lot of information Mike!   Thanks for the comments!

Now, let me try and make sense of this...

Counter rotating the forearms - would be maintaining the vertical forearm condition from A1 to A2 and up into A3.  Whereas my quickie video shows that I simply roll the left forearm early in start-up to enable the club to get on plane earlier.  This is what I was calling the horizontal wrist/forearm condition - rolling of the left forearm.  This ensures the club is parallel to the target and plane line at A2.

1.) The great way for me to check this is the butt of the grip will be facing the target.

2.) The rear of my left palm will be facing the camera at A2 while in Caddy view (face on)

3.) The clubface will be square at A2 - toe of the club will be pointing upward - more vertical like Dufner (versus Wie)

You're close with #1 and 2, I'll show how to check that shaft alignment at A2.  Be careful with #3, yes Dufner has the toe less down than Charlie but toe shouldn't be vertical.  Just some measurement I got

Love Dufner's move btw

[Beachcomber]

Makes perfect sense!  Thanks for the clarification on face angle and inclination to the ground at A2.  Great checkpoint data.

[bplewis24]

If I actually read this thread (after reading a glossary of terms first) instead of just looking at the pictures, watching the videos and making a joke every once in a while, I'd probably be a pretty good golfer by now.

[RPMPIRE]

I think I find a lot of good information here just on this "My Swing" thread. Gotta admire the work being put by Beach to perfecting/creating a good golf swing.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

If I actually read this thread (after reading a glossary of terms first) instead of just looking at the pictures, watching the videos and making a joke every once in a while, I'd probably be a pretty good golfer by now.

Yeah obviously Beach is the kind of golfer that likes all the detail and I have fun geeking out but won't be seeing me post stuff like this when giving advice to most golfers.  Although I will say that the terminology does helps with communication.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

If I actually read this thread (after reading a glossary of terms first) instead of just looking at the pictures, watching the videos and making a joke every once in a while, I'd probably be a pretty good golfer by now.

Originally Posted by RPMPIRE

I think I find a lot of good information here just on this "My Swing" thread. Gotta admire the work being put by Beach to perfecting/creating a good golf swing.

Originally Posted by mvmac

Yeah obviously Beach is the kind of golfer that likes all the detail and I have fun geeking out but won't be seeing me post stuff like this when giving advice to most golfers.  Although I will say that the terminology does helps with communication.

Yeah, I like reading this thread as well.  I gotta be honest though ... most of the stuff that Mike and Shawn talk about in here (these last few posts illustrate it the best) is way way over my head.  I believe all of this terminology is TGM stuff, right?  I barely have the alignment positions (A1, A2, etc) down.  But the good news is I don't think we have to know any of that stuff if we don't want to.  Mike and Erik use the terms but also throw in photos and videos that demonstrate what they are talking about.

I pick up a little here and there, but until somebody tells me there's going to be a test on it, I'm not getting my own copy of TGM.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Yeah, I like reading this thread as well.  I gotta be honest though ... most of the stuff that Mike and Shawn talk about in here (these last few posts illustrate it the best) is way way over my head.  I believe all of this terminology is TGM stuff, right?  I barely have the alignment positions (A1, A2, etc) down.  But the good news is I don't think we have to know any of that stuff if we don't want to.  Mike and Erik use the terms but also throw in photos and videos that demonstrate what they are talking about.

I pick up a little here and there, but until somebody tells me there's going to be a test on it, I'm not getting my own copy of TGM.

Yeah you don't need the TGM book.  Heck I don't even have one.  Just keep the notes we give you ;-)

To confuse you even more.... it's a combo of MORAD information, 5SK with some TGM.  MORAD is Mac O'Grady's system which stands for Mankind's Objective Research And Development...seriously.  A lot of the instructors we know have MORAD backgrounds.  Go HERE for the list of terminology.

So the upper right arm pressure stuff is MORAD and understanding anatomy, what parts move what, how the body conforms to the geometry, is MORAD and 5SK.  MORAD like 5SK has different ways to get it done, different patterns.  Good example for you Golfingdad was adding the neck tilt to help you change the shoulder alignments and keep the path more to the right.

MORAD has the P's, 5SK has the A's

Accumulators and other pressure points are TGM which came first, Homer Kelley The Golfing Machine

MORAD builds upon TGM, 5SK sorts through volumes of information to recognize the order and identity of the components so that they are usable to all levels off golfers.

[Beachcomber]

I picked up a copy of TGM and found it useful as I can at least grasp the instructor lingo - or when I hear something new - I can look it up and get a reference for what they are talking about.The TGM book is a difficult 'read'... But as Mike and Erik have mentioned - it's more of a reference manual.  Kind of like a Wiki for Golf instruction, only it was written originally in 1969.

TGM identifies different swing patterns and breaks each pattern down by individual components and things to monitor within the pattern.

MORAD is TGM on steroids from what I can tell... And takes the TGM patterns, creates new patterns, and breaks each into more individual components that should be monitored.

A perfect example is what Mike referenced... TGM identifies four major pressure points.  MORAD... I have no idea how many they have... But it sounds like it is at least (TGM + 1) - and then 1 has several subcomponents.  I'm sure there are even more, but MORAD has been pretty secretive and not much is published online about it.

5SK - from my vantage point is TGM/MORAD buttoned into a nice clean 2012 format that can be easily digested by the masses.  And if the student, or the instructor needs to do a deeper dive into the weeds, then falls back onto some of the TGM/MORAD principles and instruction speak.

Ok... Now back to the 'My Swing' thread!

[Beachcomber]

Updated swing video as of 11-26-12

Things I'm working on...

1.) Maintaining my inclination to the ground.

2.) Centered Pivot - getting left and right shoulders to turn more vertical - 90* around my spine angle

3.) Feeling more extension in the right side in the backswing

4.) Pull the arms down faster - don't let my hips/lower pivot outrace my upper

** I'm going to see Dana later this week - so I wanted to get my swing pattern on video before hand.  This way it will be easier to track my swing changes after my on-hands instruction.

*** I just received my 5SK videos in the mail tonight.  I watched DVD #1 - Introduction and watched it... This is what got me focused on the centered pivot mods - with the extension in the backswing... It was nice as this gave me some new videos to better understand what Evolvr was hitting on the last several months.  All-in-all... I'm stoked to see how my game improves over the next month+.

Current Misses:

Over drawing my irons (some would consider this a hook )

I believe my miss is related to my hip slide - or screwed up pivot (P4+++).  So this will be a focus with Dana.

[jd924]

Swing looks pretty good man. Does evolvr have a problem with your hip turn? I can't tell but you're most likely lining it up at A6 so it's probably not a problem. I recently switched back to the regular conventional swing pattern bc I had some trouble with the hips and upper body on the downswing which messed up my A6 that led me to come over the top. Basically my hips and arms weren't synced. For some reason the weight shift allows me to synch them up and hit A6 nicely.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

Current Misses:

Over drawing my irons (some would consider this a hook )

The ball seems to start too straight. Very little bit to the right. Without knowing your numbers, a face that's 0.5 will hook quite a bit with a path that's only 2 or 3... the fix there is a face change, not necessarily a path change.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by iacas

The ball seems to start too straight. Very little bit to the right. Without knowing your numbers, a face that's 0.5 will hook quite a bit with a path that's only 2 or 3... the fix there is a face change, not necessarily a path change.

I'm guessing the answer to my question is that 'there are 8 billion different ways to do it and everybody is different' but in the spirit of my elementary school teachers who always said that there are no dumb questions, I will ask it anyway:

When you say face change, what exactly does that entail?  Is it something simple with the grip and/or bowing/cupping of the wrists?

[mchepp]

The ball seems to start too straight. Very little bit to the right. Without knowing your numbers, a face that's 0.5 will hook quite a bit with a path that's only 2 or 3... the fix there is a face change, not necessarily a path change.

Seems to me that the shoulders and hips stall and then he is forced to close the face with his hands and he will hit pull hooks. To me, it looks really similar to my issues. He gets all bunched up, goat humps, and then flips to hit it. Rt shoulder is WAY to far back at A7-A8. I for one will be interested to hear what Dana says. You and I swing really really similarly. A side by side would be pretty spooky.

[jd924]

Seems to me that the shoulders and hips stall and then he is forced to close the face with his hands and he will hit pull hooks. To me, it looks really similar to my issues. He gets all bunched up, goat humps, and then flips to hit it. Rt shoulder is WAY to far back at A7-A8. I for one will be interested to hear what Dana says. You and I swing really really similarly. A side by side would be pretty spooky.

Now that you said it I can see the definite goat hump. What I was alluding to earlier was how his hips stall which you mentioned. Itd make sense to say that's whats causing his hook.

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I'm guessing the answer to my question is that 'there are 8 billion different ways to do it and everybody is different' but in the spirit of my elementary school teachers who always said that there are no dumb questions, I will ask it anyway:

When you say face change, what exactly does that entail?  Is it something simple with the grip and/or bowing/cupping of the wrists?

Key #5.  Just simply open the face a degree at address I believe is what Erik is stating.  My clubface is closed at impact - with a path which is only a few degrees right of the target - will cause a hook.  So getting my clubface more square should help reduce the occasional over draw / hook.

Currently, I believe my biggest issue is synching my hips with my arms. My hips are turning and sliding... Instead of sliding... then turning (post impact). Hope I can nail this with Dana's instruction?

I finished watching the 5SK DVD's.  I liked them... Looking forward to incorporating some of the drills into my practice routine.