Does President Obama play too much Golf?

[jgreen85]

You can't compare your job to the President or any executive. This person is not entering data or analyzing data or creating powerpoint slides. That's what subordinates do. His job is to make tough decisions and to hire the right people. He spends a lot of time on his phone or in meetings listening. My point being the President can still do the majority of his duties from the golf course. As can all other executives of large organizations.

I recently read a book by Colin Powell in which he describes how he took a problem to Ronald Reagan. Reagan listened to the problem and possible solutions then said, "Let me know what you decide and how it turns out." Reagan deemed the problem below his "pay-grade" and something Powell could handle, so he didn't get involved. Reagan just went back to reading his book. An executive's job is to evaluate big strategic decisions and to provide direction to those below him/her. He/she should not and must not get involved with the day to day.

I say again, do not compare you getting work done to the President or any executive. The requirements of the job are just not comparable. The work is not comparable. I know it's annoying to feel like you're spinning your wheels while the executive is off at dinners, fundraisers, and golf outings, but that's the difference between a worker bee and an executive. One finds the data, analyzes, synthesizes it, and puts in to an easily consumable package and sends it to the other who merely consumes the information and provides direction.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by jgreen85

You can't compare your job to the President or any executive...

...

I say again, do not compare you getting work done to the President or any executive...

Actually what we're doing is comparing the amount of free time we have to the amount of free time the POTUS (apparently) has. If you think it's appropriate that I have less free time to golf than the POTUS does, given our respective occupations, then we do not even have a common ground on which to debate the issue. Haven't you ever seen West Wing? I'd like to see Bartlet kick ass like he did without being able to constantly walk and talk with all his aides.

Originally Posted by jgreen85

My point being the President can still do the majority of his duties from the golf course. As can all other executives of large organizations.

Oh, and I strongly disagree on that point as well, but again, probably not worth getting into a discussion over.

[newtogolf]

I don't know what your job is, but if the POTUS doesn't have enough free time to enjoy 2 rounds of golf per month then the job needs to pay much more than it currently does.

The president earns a $400,000 annual salary, along with a $50,000 annual expense account, a $100,000 nontaxable travel account and $19,000 for entertainment.

That compensation plan isn't close to what the CEO of a major corporation receives and I don't see anyone discussing how much golf Trump plays.  The POTUS has a huge staff that summarizes key material into digestable pieces so unless there's a crisis, the POTUS should have some spare time while running the country to run out for a quick round of golf.

Remember, no one is allowed on the course with him so except for his 4-some he doesn't have to wait on any of those slow players we're discussing on other threads.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Yeah because that's what we're doing.

Actually what we're doing is comparing the amount of free time we have to the amount of free time the POTUS (apparently) has. If you think it's appropriate that I have less free time to golf than the POTUS does, given our respective occupations, then we do not even have a common ground on which to debate the issue.

Oh, and I strongly disagree on that point as well, but again, probably not worth getting into a discussion over.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I don't know what your job is, but if the POTUS doesn't have enough free time to enjoy 2 rounds of golf per month then the job needs to pay much more than it currently does.

Remember, no one is allowed on the course with him so except for his 4-some he doesn't have to wait on any of those slow players we're discussing on other threads.

And from browsing on news sites, the President typically doesn't play an entire 18 holes when he does play. We all relax and/or relieve stress in different ways, and I am not going to tell anyone how they are supposed to relieve stress. Bush 43 was supposedly the the king of vacation taking, but he still worked on a daily basis, and I won't begrudge him his time on the Crawford, Tx ranch. Same with Obama, these guys are grownups, they know their schedules. They're human, guys. Believe it or not.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Regardless of what a round of presidential golf costs taxpayers, and getting back to the original topic, I kinda feel the same way. Anyone seeking the office should understand it's a 24/7 job. It's a four year commitment to work really hard during that time. I'm not saying you can't take breaks or vacations, or even play 18 once in a while - but I do think that averaging 2.5 rounds of golf per month over 4 years is wasting a lot of time that could be spent solving problems. I don't believe that a lot of problems get solved, or "business" is discussed, during these rounds.

Put another way: *I* can't get 2.5 rounds of golf per month in. If the president has more free time than me, something is wrong

.He's under more pressure every day than you have been in your lifetime. If that's what he needs to do to unwind, more power to him. And BTW, if you can't get 2.5 rounds in per month, that's your problem.

[jgreen85]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Actually what we're doing is comparing the amount of free time we have to the amount of free time the POTUS (apparently) has. If you think it's appropriate that I have less free time to golf than the POTUS does, given our respective occupations, then we do not even have a common ground on which to debate the issue. Haven't you ever seen West Wing? I'd like to see Bartlet kick ass like he did without being able to constantly walk and talk with all his aides.

Oh, and I strongly disagree on that point as well, but again, probably not worth getting into a discussion over.

you discussed in your post previous to this one that the President should not have as much or more "free" time as you or anyone else who is not the President. My claim was that he can do his work and play golf at the same time, so this "free" time to play golf is not really "free" time. The President is on the clock 24/7/365.

No, I have not seen this fictional show the West Wing, so that reference I don't understand.

I'm sorry that you don't agree, but it's true. The nature of his work does not require he be in a cubicle or any office. Given your persistence in this thread, I don't think there's anyway the President could win with you. Thanks for sharing your perspective.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by phan52

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Regardless of what a round of presidential golf costs taxpayers, and getting back to the original topic, I kinda feel the same way. Anyone seeking the office should understand it's a 24/7 job. It's a four year commitment to work really hard during that time. I'm not saying you can't take breaks or vacations, or even play 18 once in a while - but I do think that averaging 2.5 rounds of golf per month over 4 years is wasting a lot of time that could be spent solving problems. I don't believe that a lot of problems get solved, or "business" is discussed, during these rounds.

Put another way: *I* can't get 2.5 rounds of golf per month in. If the president has more free time than me, something is wrong

.He's under more pressure every day than you have been in your lifetime. If that's what he needs to do to unwind, more power to him. And BTW, if you can't get 2.5 rounds in per month, that's your problem.

I'm just saying, I'd prefer a president who can handle the job without needing so much "unwinding" time on the golf course.  Most presidents before Obama seem to have been able to.

Originally Posted by jgreen85

I'm sorry that you don't agree, but it's true. The nature of his work does not require he be in a cubicle or any office. Given your persistence in this thread, I don't think there's anyway the President could win with you.

I could just as easily say, "And given your persistence in this thread, there's no way he can lose with you." But that doesn't really get us anywhere.

See, this is what I predicted - if it was just your *opinion* that he doesn't need an office, then we might have an intelligent debate. But since you are stating that as a fact, further discussion is probably pointless.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

I'm just saying, I'd prefer a president who can handle the job without needing so much "unwinding" time on the golf course.  Most presidents before Obama seem to have been able to.

You have a source for this?  I seem to remember Bush 43 getting all sorts of press for the vacations he took.  Clinton was famous for being addicted to fast food and golf (and women).  I had never heard of Kennebunkport, Maine until Bush 41 became President.

I would bet that Obama's vacations/free time to golf/play basketball/whatever are not out of line with recent presidents of the past.

From a quick google search:  A CBS news story from August 2011 comparing the amount of vacation days taken through their first 31 months in office ...

Obama:  61

W:         180

Clinton:   28

Reagan:  112

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

I'm just saying, I'd prefer a president who can handle the job without needing so much "unwinding" time on the golf course.  Most presidents before Obama seem to have been able to.

You have a source for this?  I seem to remember Bush 43 getting all sorts of press for the vacations he took.  Clinton was famous for being addicted to fast food and golf (and women).  I had never heard of Kennebunkport, Maine until Bush 41 became President.

I would bet that Obama's vacations/free time to golf/play basketball/whatever are not out of line with recent presidents of the past.

From a quick google search:  A CBS news story from August 2011 comparing the amount of vacation days taken through their first 31 months in office ...

Obama:  61

W:         180

Clinton:   28

Reagan:  112

There are numerous sources, all you need to do is google it, or read the first few pages of this thread where some sources are linked. I'll just post the first hit I got: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57454890-503544/president-obama-plays-100th-round-of-golf-draws-fire-from-critics/

Yep, GW did get a lot of flack for playing golf, but he only averaged a round a month for the first two years, then quit altogether in 2003, stating that him being out on the golf course while we were at war sent the wrong message. Certainly the media played a role in him coming to that conclusion. :-)

I can't find the link but Golf Digest magazine ranked the presidents in order of either frequency or total amount of golf (I forget which).  Obama was ahead of both Bush and Reagan, but behind Bill Clinton. So you're right, Clinton played a lot of golf too but I didn't want to mention it since I'm sure I would've been accused of democrat-bashing.

I'm sure your google stats on vacation days are correct - but I don't think Obama's golf outings are being included in his vacation days. (After all, as has been pointed out, they are *working* rounds.) Actually they must not be included, since he golfed about 75 times in the first 31 months and his vacation days are only at 61...

You make a good point though, in that GW took a lot of vacation days. I'm just as disappointed in that as I am in Barry.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

There are numerous sources, all you need to do is google it, or read the first few pages of this thread where some sources are linked. I'll just post the first hit I got: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57454890-503544/president-obama-plays-100th-round-of-golf-draws-fire-from-critics/

Yep, GW did get a lot of flack for playing golf, but he only averaged a round a month for the first two years, then quit altogether in 2003, stating that him being out on the golf course while we were at war sent the wrong message. Certainly the media played a role in him coming to that conclusion. :-)

I can't find the link but Golf Digest magazine ranked the presidents in order of either frequency or total amount of golf (I forget which).  Obama was ahead of both Bush and Reagan, but behind Bill Clinton. So you're right, Clinton played a lot of golf too but I didn't want to mention it since I'm sure I would've been accused of democrat-bashing.

I'm sure your google stats on vacation days are correct - but I don't think Obama's golf outings are being included in his vacation days. (After all, as has been pointed out, they are *working* rounds.) Actually they must not be included, since he golfed about 75 times in the first 31 months and his vacation days are only at 61...

Correct, that story (cbs news, popped up when I googled "Presidents vacations") is only talking about actual vacations, not golf.  But I was responding directly to your comment about previous presidents not needing "unwinding time" like Obama does.

If your point is that he should be too busy to play golf, then naturally he should be too busy to do anything recreational, correct?  Even if you add the 75 to the 61, it still doesn't reach W's vacations (which also didn't include his golf).  Clinton only vacationed 28 days, but we both agree that he golfed a lot, so probably more than 75 times since Obama ranked behind him.

Clearly all of these last few presidents (and I would bet all of them ever) needed ample time away from the job as a stress reliever.  Some golf, some fish, some chop wood.

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

I'm just saying, I'd prefer a president who can handle the job without needing so much "unwinding" time on the golf course.  Most presidents before Obama seem to have been able to.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

You have a source for this?  I seem to remember Bush 43 getting all sorts of press for the vacations he took.  Clinton was famous for being addicted to fast food and golf (and women).  I had never heard of Kennebunkport, Maine until Bush 41 became President.

I would bet that Obama's vacations/free time to golf/play basketball/whatever are not out of line with recent presidents of the past.

From a quick google search:  A CBS news story from August 2011 comparing the amount of vacation days taken through their first 31 months in office ...

Obama:  61

W:         180

Clinton:   28

Reagan:  112

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

There are numerous sources, all you need to do is google it, or read the first few pages of this thread where some sources are linked. I'll just post the first hit I got: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57454890-503544/president-obama-plays-100th-round-of-golf-draws-fire-from-critics/

Yep, GW did get a lot of flack for playing golf, but he only averaged a round a month for the first two years, then quit altogether in 2003, stating that him being out on the golf course while we were at war sent the wrong message. Certainly the media played a role in him coming to that conclusion. :-)

I can't find the link but Golf Digest magazine ranked the presidents in order of either frequency or total amount of golf (I forget which).  Obama was ahead of both Bush and Reagan, but behind Bill Clinton. So you're right, Clinton played a lot of golf too but I didn't want to mention it since I'm sure I would've been accused of democrat-bashing.

I'm sure your google stats on vacation days are correct - but I don't think Obama's golf outings are being included in his vacation days. (After all, as has been pointed out, they are *working* rounds.) Actually they must not be included, since he golfed about 75 times in the first 31 months and his vacation days are only at 61...

You make a good point though, in that GW took a lot of vacation days. I'm just as disappointed in that as I am in Barry.

Everyone needs to unwind, and golf isn't the only way to do it.

Bush stopped playing golf, but he exercised nearly 2 hours per day, every day.  He spent 30 days at his ranch every August, and at least 10 days at Christmas and in the Spring, every year.  He had a situation room built there, so he wasn't just goofing off the whole time; however, he did spend a looooott of time driving around in an ATV, chopping wood, and repairing fences.  It relaxed him.

Reagan, as has been pointed out, did the same thing at his ranch in California.

Clinton didn't take a lot of vacations, or "days off", but he did recreate.  He went to a lot of sporting events.  At times while at sporting events, an aide would come up, whisper in his ear, or hand him a telephone (I'm thinking specifically of at least 2 incident's I've read accounts of when he was at PGA Tour events).  He attended a lot of dinners, and, well, found other ways to amuse himself at the White House.

I think it's totally unrealistic to say that other Presidents have managed without needing so much "unwind" time.  Prior to cable news, no one knew every second of every day what the President was doing.  24-hour coverage of the President's every step really began during the Clinton administration (41's life just wasn't that interesting).  But, just looking at the vacation days of the last 4 Presidents, I think it's pretty clear that every President needs some time off.

Two more points.

1. If you have a job that requires complex thinking, strategizing, and problem solving, then you know that you don't have to be in an office to "work".  I do my best work (thinking) after I've done sufficient research, looked at enough facts and data, and then had a relaxing setting in which to think.  I've had breakthrough moments in cases while running.  I plan out my day, every single day, while sitting on my porch from 0500 to 0600 drinking coffee.  Then, when I get to work, I'm focused and ready to lead and execute.

2. I would guess that no President (except maybe Reagan's second term) since Kennedy took office ever had more than 4 or 5 full vacation days per year.  I'm talking days when they did NO WORK.  No meetings, no strategy sessions, and no secure phonecalls.  And, even on those days, they still are reachable and get a PDB.  I would guess that the average Hawaii vacation day for Obama (he's been here every Christmas) includes 6 hours of work.  Every time he is here he visits the bases, meets with party leaders, does some community Presidential appearance, and has taken a side-trip somewhere into Asia.  I know this because it's on the news every day when he's here.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

...If your point is that he should be too busy to play golf, then naturally he should be too busy to do anything recreational, correct?  Even if you add the 75 to the 61, it still doesn't reach W's vacations (which also didn't include his golf)...

As I've said, it's not like I think there shouldn't be any vacations or breaks. My only point has been that Obama takes a lot of breaks for golf - more than anyone previously. In terms of total vacation days, I was editing my post so you may not have seen it but I did add to it to say I'm just as disappointed in GW in terms of how much vacation he took.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Clearly all of these last few presidents (and I would bet all of them ever) needed ample time away from the job as a stress reliever.  Some golf, some fish, some chop wood.

True. I guess whether one is bothered by how much time off a president is taking all depends on whether you think they're getting the job done, which I understand can be very subjective.

[newtogolf]

I said this in my original response.  If Obama or any President was doing a good job by their standards, no one would care how much golf they played.  I doubt if Obama quit golf and dedicated 100% of his time to being POTUS the results would be any different.  His policies either work or don't, playing golf isn't impacting their success.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

True. I guess whether one is bothered by how much time off a president is taking all depends on whether you think they're getting the job done, which I understand can be very subjective.

[Mr. Desmond]

Eisenhower has all the Presidents beat for golf.

[Lihu]

This thread is so long, so I am sure to be repeating someone. If the President likes golf, and plays with great regularity, that should be good for golf. Or Can there be a such thing as too much golf?

[newtogolf]

There can be, but we're not close enough to the situation to know if it is.

Does Antonio Perez (13 handicap) or Edward Stack (4.1 handicap) play too much golf?  If you based it on their handicap you might think Stack is spending too much time on the course but it's Perez who's CEO of a company that's in Chapter 11 (Eastman Kodak).

Most people need down time, if they didn't play golf, they'd do something else other than work or golf.

Originally Posted by Lihu

This thread is so long, so I am sure to be repeating someone.

If the President likes golf, and plays with great regularity, that should be good for golf.

Or

Can there be a such thing as too much golf?

[stogiesnbogies]

Obama "worst president ever"?!

Try Andrew Johnson, Hoover...and ...of course...

Have you already forgotten George W Bush who put two wars on the credit card-one totally unnecessary while blowing up the economy?

Meanwhile Obama has 31 consecutive months of private job GROWTH -compared to Bush who was losing over 750 THOUSAND jobs per month; he ended the neo-con war in Iraq and oh BTW he killed that Bin Laden guy Bush wasnt interested in finding.......Obama faced historically unprecedented and in fact treasonous obstruction from the GOP/Tea Baggers in congress yet has righted the ship...it took Bush 8 long incompetent and criminal years to create this mess and you complain that Obama hasnt mopped it up fast enough?!  LOL

You must have a serious case of Romnesia.

[WalkTheCourse]

Hey, let's not forget about Dan Quayle... While not a president, and completely useless as a politician, he was one DAMN good golfer... He'd smoke Obama :).