Does President Obama play too much Golf?

[dave67az]

I thought I'd add a link to this discussion.  The clear purpose of the website is to discredit the President, but at least it has a complete listing (or claims to, at least) of all the golf outings the President has taken in nearly 4 years in office.

http://obamagolfcounter.com/

You'll notice the RARE number of public courses on the list.

The main reason for this is security.  It would cost way more to secure an area for a visit in a public location (which is why cities pay so much when he comes to speak).

To play at a military course, however, the cost to the taxpayers is only in getting him to and from the course from everything I can see.

So how much does it cost to get the President there and back in Marine One?

Well, in 1994 the cost was under $3,000.  We know this because one of Clinton's White House officials (David Watkins) used Marine One without permission to go to Frederick Maryland to play golf in May 1994.  Clinton fired him and made him repay the tab, which was put at $2,380.

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/05/27/us/using-clinton-s-helicopter-costs-an-official-his-job.html

Considering it's easier to use Marine One than drive a motorcade through D.C., I'm betting that's the standard transportation method for Obama's golf outings (still looking for data on that).

So you can see why I'm balking a little at this "$100,000s per round" tab that was claimed (I hope you can see that, at least).

If you're going to complain about $5,000 a month in golf, I'm betting you can find much more waste in the government if you set your mind to it.  Does it all add up?  Yep, eventually.  But to think that our Presidents should work day and night without breaks is kind of ridiculous.  You act like he has a M-F, 9-5 job and if he's golfing during the day then he's not putting in the hours he should be.  I sure as hell hope you don't feel that way about our military, because our units often took days to have picnics, sporting events, hell even golf outings, in order to remind ourselves what it felt like to be a normal person from time to time.

I'm not blaming the guy who posted that $100,000s remark because I'm sure he just heard it from somewhere else.  But c'mon people, let's not just start repeating every claim made in this campaign as though it were fact.

[grashoper]

It is topics like this one that give America a bad name.This is your future Guys,these people determine the way you live,die and or play golf.

What you need to do is discuss the par and bogeys of each of the parties vying for the Presidency and not make golfers look DUMB discussing the amount of rounds a president plays.

Come on guys don't let people make us a laughing stock.

Get serious.

[Lihu]

Yeah, that's kind of what VPs do these days from what I've seen.  Well, except for the last one.  He was too busy shooting campaign contributors on hunting trips.  :-D His entry in our "What did you shoot today" forum would have been fun to read.

I believe at would be a "Who did you shoot today?" many responses would be " What...", no actually, "who...".

[phillyk]

I know a few "celeb.-like" people who golf fairly often, but they also bring their managers and whoever else to discuss business.  Its kind of like working out while doing actual work, it just helps you think from a different view.  Im sure the presidents do go out and golf for the hell of it, but they prolly can't help but discuss certain topics to make the mind wander and thereby "working".  I mean its not like everybody is always doing work to be productive.  Its the act of thinking that makes the work productive.

In any case, grashoper, presidents don't decide how I live or die or play golf.  The president is just another voice who happens to have more of a say but we have a few other "says" that make just as much a difference.  And discussing the par and bogies of the parties isn't doing any help either since neither will tell the truth to the public.  They just say whatever will get them into office.  What would help is discussing the tee shot and how each person is basing their party.  "Why?" is the most important question.  It's about understanding the data and the outcomes of the data.  Why use the driver off the tee?  Is it the distance, weather, how you're feeling... etc?  From the basics, golf is like determining foreign policy, you need to understand the outcome of each decision.  And I think saying the president plays golf at a certain course might even give people a reason to golf there or even golf in general just because they know another person that does it.

[AmazingWhacker]

What's the point of being president if you can't even play a little golf?

[reflection]

Originally Posted by dave67az

So, "reflection", would you please tell me where the "$100,000s each round he plays" came from?

- Dave

Admittedly, I don't know exact numbers.  $100,000s is subjective.  Here's what I do know.

- It's the local police that do the road closures for his motorcade.  He rides to Andrews and flies out of there on Air Force One.

- He also plays nearby at Fort Belvoir.

- I'm sure sometimes he takes his helicopter to AFB and Belvoir too.

- His security detail and entourage consumes about 30 golf carts.

- Traffic in the DC area is BAD.  REALLY BAD.  They close the roads in both directions for his motorcade.

These points below are subjective:

- Each time the President's motorcade travels, there are rolling road closures.  This happens all along the route.  I've had this add an hour to a trip before.  I don't know how many people this affects, but traffic stands still. Let's say it's 10,000 people (don't know for sure, I know that over 200K vehicles per day on weekdays (which includes buses and HOV) travel on the beltway.  Even if it's 5,000 people...it's still a lot of people that are affected.  How much is their time worth?  Their gas?  Their additional stress?  Their late appointments?  Over $100K is reasonable.

- No one likes to be booted from their tee time.  The worse part is that they don't tell you in advance (for security reasons, his schedule is secret, as well as when roads are closed).  I'd rather stay home than get pushed back 3 hours.  My golf outing is ruined.  Wish I could tell him that so that he would understand.

- It's not just Obama, it's Condalisa Rice.  She plays there even more than Obama.  Same ordeal...although fewer carts.

- I love golf but I'm also busy, so I only manage to squeeze in about 15 rounds per year.  I'm sure that Presidents have busier schedules than I do (and lots more important things to attend to).  Shouldn't he be taking care of other things?

- The president should be held to a higher standard.  Any President - not just Obama.  He has a duty, a responsibility to prioritize his time.  He has the most important position in the entire world as the President of the United States.  He should not be taking 5hrs to play golf.  He can play golf all he wants when his term is over, but while in office, he has a job to do.

My view is that Presidents should not be playing golf while in Office (unless they are on vacation).  Also, they should not take long vacations (5 days max).

Golf is a game.  If a President wants to relieve stress, don't play golf for 5 hours, just install a simulator in the White House and  play for 1hr or do what I do, just practice putting in my family room for 20min.  We elected you to do the most important job in the world.  Yes it's a tough and demanding job.  It's also a privilege that many people would like to do.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by reflection

Admittedly, I don't know exact numbers.  $100,000s is subjective.  Here's what I do know.

- It's the local police that do the road closures for his motorcade.  He rides to Andrews and flies out of there on Air Force One.

- He also plays nearby at Fort Belvoir.

- I'm sure sometimes he takes his helicopter to AFB and Belvoir too.

- His security detail and entourage consumes about 30 golf carts.

- Traffic in the DC area is BAD.  REALLY BAD.  They close the roads in both directions for his motorcade.

These points below are subjective:

- Each time the President's motorcade travels, there are rolling road closures.  This happens all along the route.  I've had this add an hour to a trip before.  I don't know how many people this affects, but traffic stands still. Let's say it's 10,000 people (don't know for sure, I know that over 200K vehicles per day on weekdays (which includes buses and HOV) travel on the beltway.  Even if it's 5,000 people...it's still a lot of people that are affected.  How much is their time worth?  Their gas?  Their additional stress?  Their late appointments?  Over $100K is reasonable.

- No one likes to be booted from their tee time.  The worse part is that they don't tell you in advance (for security reasons, his schedule is secret, as well as when roads are closed).  I'd rather stay home than get pushed back 3 hours.  My golf outing is ruined.  Wish I could tell him that so that he would understand.

- It's not just Obama, it's Condalisa Rice.  She plays there even more than Obama.  Same ordeal...although fewer carts.

- I love golf but I'm also busy, so I only manage to squeeze in about 15 rounds per year.  I'm sure that Presidents have busier schedules than I do (and lots more important things to attend to).  Shouldn't he be taking care of other things?

- The president should be held to a higher standard.  Any President - not just Obama.  He has a duty, a responsibility to prioritize his time.  He has the most important position in the entire world as the President of the United States.  He should not be taking 5hrs to play golf.  He can play golf all he wants when his term is over, but while in office, he has a job to do.

My view is that Presidents should not be playing golf while in Office (unless they are on vacation).  Also, they should not take long vacations (5 days max).

Golf is a game.  If a President wants to relieve stress, don't play golf for 5 hours, just install a simulator in the White House and  play for 1hr or do what I do, just practice putting in my family room for 20min.  We elected you to do the most important job in the world.  Yes it's a tough and demanding job.  It's also a privilege that many people would like to do.

There is no such thing as "subjective" numbers.  They're either accurate, or they're fabricated.  In this case, they're clearly fabricated.  Thanks for clearing it up, though.

[reflection]

Originally Posted by dave67az

There is no such thing as "subjective" numbers.  They're either accurate, or they're fabricated.  In this case, they're clearly fabricated. Thanks for clearing it up, though.

Of course there is such a thing.  Putting a value on people's time is subjective, which is what I did.  You might think your time is worth $100/hr.  Someone else might think your time is worth $50/hr. That's subjective .

Dave, your tone is very argumentative <------ that's subjective of course.

I'm not going to argue with you.  I'm just stating my views.

[dave67az]

Well, I am arguing with the accuracy of the number you pulled out of your hat, so yes, I am being argumentative.

I'm not offended by that, any more than you should be offended by the fact that I'm calling you out for making a statement like "it cost the tax payers $100,000s each round he plays" when, in fact, you aren't talking about money OR tax dollars but time and inconvenience.

In any case, I also have a little trouble believing that he rides in a motorcade from the White House to Andrews and flies back on Air Force One.

But I guess I'm just supposed to take your word for that?

As for the "30 golf carts" statement, you have yet to explain how this costs any taxpayers anything but you keep bringing it up as evidence of how much it costs the taxpayers.  Did you even read the posts that explain where the budgets for military golf courses comes from?

I don't mean anything personal by ANY of my statements.  You'll notice that I even tried to give you the benefit of the doubt by saying that maybe you read that number somewhere.  I didn't even BEGIN to assume you made it up out of thin air based on YOUR estimates of how much time it costs people and what their time and inconvenience is worth.

[dave67az]

Further evidence that the President would rather take Marine One for all trips to Andrews as opposed to a motorcade which would inconvenience so many drivers whose time is clearly worth $100 an hour.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/40771.html

And wouldn't you know it...there's people complaining about THIS too.

I'm done with this thread though.  I've made my point, backed up with actual sources for dollar amounts.

Feel free to have the last word if you'd like.  I'm pretty satisfied with the facts I've presented and I think they stand on their own without me putting in my opinion.

[reflection]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave67az

Well, I am arguing with the accuracy of the number you pulled out of your hat, so yes, I am being argumentative.

I'm not offended by that, any more than you should be offended by the fact that I'm calling you out for making a statement like "it cost the tax payers $100,000s each round he plays" when, in fact, you aren't talking about money OR tax dollars but time and inconvenience.

Time and inconvenience and stress and fuel can all be equated to dollars.  Besides, that's not even the main point.  The main point is that Obama (or any President) should not be taking a 5-6hr trip to play golf when there are more pressing National issues to take care of.  Just go putt on the White House putting green or take a swim in one of the White House swimming pools if he needs a little break.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave67az

In any case, I also have a little trouble believing that he rides in a motorcade from the White House to Andrews and flies back on Air Force One.

But I guess I'm just supposed to take your word for that?

LOL. No, he does not fly back on Air Force One.  Unless they built a runway for a 747 at the White House recently.  It's common sense that he can't do that.  He flies out of AFB on Air Force One for longer trips.  Sorry if you thought I meant he flew his 747 back to the White House.

Quote:

As for the "30 golf carts" statement, you have yet to explain how this costs any taxpayers anything but you keep bringing it up as evidence of how much it costs the taxpayers.  Did you even read the posts that explain where the budgets for military golf courses comes from?

20 carts, 30 carts, 100 carts - the exact number is not important.  I'm trying to convey to you how big his entourage is... My point is that there is a circus involved and we have to bend over for Presidents to play golf.  Bomb squad, secret service agents, ambulance, etc..all that travels with the President.  This entourage "costs" us "middle class" folks a lot of time and frustration.  I did not bring up costs for cart rentals or greens fees or food expenses or anything like that (although I do agree there are some costs associated with that).

[NuclearMike]

Originally Posted by Stretch

Mitt Romney would suck off a goat on live television if it would get him a 1/4 inch closer to the presidency. Worked in US politics for almost 10 years and never came across a less-principled candidate. Thanks for reminding me how much the whole cycle reeks. Been happily ignoring it from a safe distance.

I'll get him the goat.

[Lihu]

Having lived in DC (and still visit my parents there), I saw helicopters and limousines all over the place. It costs the taxpayers lots of money even if a congressman wants to go out for a bagel. The air space over DC is pretty well protected (I hope), there are barricades all over the place (even before 9-11 there were some, now they're all over the place). So, a helicopter ride is probably the only real alternative for the president from the White House. If he decides to drive, it would block already heavily congested traffic. Even if it costs $100,000 per round of golf, it seems pretty reasonable. It cost the nation $3,000,000/year or $12,000,000 over his term. It most likely costs that much, in todays dollars, for Reagan to chop wood. Politicians cost us lots of money, we should make sure that whoever gets into office should be good at their job. Vote for who you like, but make sure they can do what you want.

[phan52]

It appears that, outside of his vacations, he plays almost all of is golf at Andrews AFB and Fort Belvoir. What's the big deal? I could understand the problem if he was flying all around the country to set up games.

Mr. President, your honor.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by reflection

...My view is that Presidents should not be playing golf while in Office (unless they are on vacation).  Also, they should not take long vacations (5 days max).

Regardless of what a round of presidential golf costs taxpayers, and getting back to the original topic, I kinda feel the same way. Anyone seeking the office should understand it's a 24/7 job. It's a four year commitment to work really hard during that time. I'm not saying you can't take breaks or vacations, or even play 18 once in a while - but I do think that averaging 2.5 rounds of golf per month over 4 years is wasting a lot of time that could be spent solving problems. I don't believe that a lot of problems get solved, or "business" is discussed, during these rounds.

Put another way: *I* can't get 2.5 rounds of golf per month in. If the president has more free time than me, something is wrong.

[Dave2512]

I disagree, last thing I want is a guy in the oval office that's fried from too much work. A couple of rounds of golf each month is nothing.  I work 70+ hours a week and workout at least 2 hrs a day and I'm getting in 9 holes 3-4 times a week in fall shortened days. I still have time to spare.

[hanalei]

He needs all the practice he can get, have u seen his swing? I have no problems with him golfing. Romney desperation tactics...

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Dave2512

I disagree, last thing I want is a guy in the oval office that's fried from too much work. A couple of rounds of golf each month is nothing.  I work 70+ hours a week and workout at least 2 hrs a day and I'm getting in 9 holes 3-4 times a week in fall shortened days. I still have time to spare.

Yes, you and I have time to spare because we're not the leader of the free world.  And I respect your opinion, it's just that my opinion is that if you're going to be president you need to have the stamina (or work ethic, or whatever you want to call it) to be able to handle the job without getting fried, and without having to spend 10-12 hours a month at the golf course to accomplish that.

Originally Posted by hanalei

He needs all the practice he can get, have u seen his swing? I have no problems with him golfing. Romney desperation tactics...

LOL at the first part there. But, this has been an issue since long before Romney became the nominee - simply because, no matter how one feels about it, it's a fact that Obama plays a lot more golf than his predecessor did. (Who btw was just as widely criticized by the left for doing so.)