Smart Phone GPS Now Not Allowed?

[newtogolf]

Actually I've been told the GX-4 is not legal regardless of the faceplate.  The fact the device has the ability to measure slope makes it's illegal to use for handicap or tournament use.  If that ruling has changed recently I'm not aware of it.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Exactly. In fact, a good example of this is the GX-IV itself: It slope feature can only be enabled with the easily visible yellow faceplate. If the faceplate is not on, the device has been ruled legal. The capability of measuring slope still exists. The capability of accessing it does not. This is exactly the same as a phone that has a compass, level, or anything else of that nature, that does not have a user-interface available to access that info.

Side to Erik: I care about this as little as you do, I'm sure - this is merely an intellectual exercise until/unless there is a definitive, unified, published stance on the issue by the rules bodies.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Actually I've been told the GX-4 is not legal regardless of the faceplate.  The fact the device has the ability to measure slope makes it's illegal to use for handicap or tournament use.  If that ruling has changed recently I'm not aware of it.

If true, I stand corrected. I just remember there being a big deal about the yellow faceplate making it legal, but maybe that was just what Leopold *wanted* to happen. :-) At any rate, my (and Zeg's) point still stands: By Erik's reasoning, all GPS devices are illegal since they inherently have a compass and/or altitude measuring capability, even if there is no way to access that info by the user.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by zeg

This creates something of a problem. Any GPS-capable device can be used as a compass: it cannot make a static determination of direction, but it's quite common to assume that a moving user is carrying the GPS in the viewing orientation and use their velocity to determine the orientation of the device.

Furthermore, a device with a microphone can often be used as an anemometer by listening to the wind whistle in the mic. It's not very accurate, but quite certainly could be used to approximately measure the wind speed.

And if you're MacGyver you can probably fashion a crude compass from your beer can tab and your 6-iron, but the point is that those devices don't "measure" the wind speed or direction nor do they measure which way they're pointing. The microphone "measures" (records, senses, etc.) audio and the GPS chip measures (calculates, derives, etc.) your location.

So no, I reject that.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

If true, I stand corrected. I just remember there being a big deal about the yellow faceplate making it legal, but maybe that was just what Leopold *wanted* to happen. :-) At any rate, my (and Zeg's) point still stands: By Erik's reasoning, all GPS devices are illegal since they inherently have a compass and/or altitude measuring capability, even if there is no way to access that info by the user.

You stand corrected then. And the yellow one "enabled" slope. It was the silver one Leupold hoped would be legal.

And in short, GPS doesn't measure direction (nor does a microphone measure wind speed/direction).

I'm out. Fo realz this time. ;) Maybe. Hopefully.

[x129]

No it isn't measuring. It is looking up the data. AFAIK it would be legal to have a book that says 6 paces from the big tree is at 100 ft and do similiar stuff at the green. This just automating the process. With a laser range finder you can locate your position very accurately on the course using simple geometry.

Here is something else to think about. Would accessing the internet be a violation of 8-1 Advice if you receive any prohibited information? Sure sounds like it to me.

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Hmm, I still disagree. By measuring location you are measuring altitude, given you have a database that associates one with the other. (And allowed GPS apps don't give you the altitude measurement.)

In contrast, you are not measuring weather at your location by accessing data that was measured somewhere else.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by zeg

This creates something of a problem. Any GPS-capable device can be used as a compass: it cannot make a static determination of direction, but it's quite common to assume that a moving user is carrying the GPS in the viewing orientation and use their velocity to determine the orientation of the device.

Furthermore, a device with a microphone can often be used as an anemometer by listening to the wind whistle in the mic. It's not very accurate, but quite certainly could be used to approximately measure the wind speed.

It's probably possible to measure the temperature at least crudely using some of these devices as well, even if there's not a specifically-designed thermometer component in the hardware.

So if you really want to get down to that level, it'd be hard to say that any PDA or smart phone could possibly be legal. The hardware in any of them is capable of making illegal measurements. If that's their intent, there are easier ways to accomplish that. It seems much more likely to me that "features" is being offered as an alternative description of an "application" in that phrase. I.e., a user-accessible mode that actually makes the measurement and displays the result. A piece of hardware without software support installed doesn't strike me as matching the sense of "feature" in that sentence.

Now wait a minute.  I think you are correct that any GPS device can be used as a compass.  Well what technology do the standalone rangefinders use?  GPS technology.  Which intrinsically contains the hardware to be used as a compass.  And since hardware can be a feature, I think you have just outlawed the standalone rangefinders, since they have the hardware
that can be used as a compass.

I also wonder about those lasers with the slope feature.  When you buy one that doesn't have that feature did the company really redesign the unit altogether?  Or did they disable the hardware so there is no way to  turn on the slope feature.  And of the latter, then the hardware is still there. And since hardware is a feature they would also have to be outlawed.

But let's talk about the compass feature.  Is there actually a measurement of the magnetic pole?  Or is the direction inferred from GPS signals, i.e.looked up.  Because I am pretty sure that it is legal to carry a map of the course with you and to, before the round, draw a little arrow pointing North.  From that you can tell directions pretty accurately from point on the course.  So how is knowing which way is North, or that the direction from the ball location to the green is SouthWest prohibited information in the first place?

One thing in all of this is clear.  The ruling bodies in golf are maintaining their perfect record of doing a terrible job in adjusting to new technologies.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by iacas

And if you're MacGyver you can probably fashion a crude compass from your beer can tab and your 6-iron, but the point is that those devices don't "measure" the wind speed or direction nor do they measure which way they're pointing. The microphone "measures" (records, senses, etc.) audio and the GPS chip measures (calculates, derives, etc.) your location.

So no, I reject that.

Don't be dismissive---this isn't remotely absurd. A friend of mine deployed a weather station on Mt. Everest that was built on a microphone wind sensor. The microphone is more of a measurement of wind than a network-based weather app is a "measurement" of weather. Even a spinner anemometer doesn't measure wind, it measures the speed of a rotating vane (and, actually, it only counts ticks when a blade breaks an optical signal path).

For that matter, a GPS receiver doesn't even measure position, it measures relative time delays between satellites. Converting microphone noise into an estimate of wind speed is far more direct than the GPS location calculation (trust me on this one, my first job was GPS receiver development).

Originally Posted by turtleback

Now wait a minute.  I think you are correct that any GPS device can be used as a compass.  Well what technology do the standalone rangefinders use?  GPS technology.  Which intrinsically contains the hardware to be used as a compass.  And since hardware can be a feature, I think you have just outlawed the standalone rangefinders, since they have the hardware

that can be used as a compass.

True, and essentially all do this either with a magnetic compass or with the velocity-inferred method. However, the rule as written only applies the ambiguous language to smartphone or PDAs. Stand-alone distance-measuring-devices don't seem to be subject to the same abstract restriction (assuming that, in fact, the smartphones are). While it'd be possible to "root" your GPS and install firmware that could enable a readout of compass heading, at that point I"m going to agree with Erik's "MacGuyver" characterization.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

This from the Equipment Standards Dept of the R&A; following an enquiry some time ago by a national rules official colleague from elsewhere in Europe.

I refer to your email below, which has been under consideration and I regret the delayed response.

Please be advised that we are in agreement with the position you have taken – i.e. reference to a general weather forecast would be permissible, but the measurement of actual conditions such as wind or temperature would not be permitted.

Pay attention to the words I bolded. A weather forecast is a prediction calculated by meteorologist. Measured wind speed and direction is no forecast, it is actual and accurate data. Getting this kind of data is not allowed even though a player is not measuring it himself. Any other interpretation would be beyond imagination. It would just be circumventing a Rule if it was allowed.

Again, the basic principle is that a player is entitled to all data that existed before his round commenced.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by zeg

Don't be dismissive---this isn't remotely absurd.

Compasses measure magnetic fields.

Anemometers and vanes measure wind speed and direction.

But okay, let's ban all smart phones because they have microphones and can "measure" wind speed. It's fine by me, but good luck to you with that one.

[turtleback]

Quote:

True, and essentially all do this either with a magnetic compass or with the velocity-inferred method. However, the rule as written only applies the ambiguous language to smartphone or PDAs. Stand-alone distance-measuring-devices don't seem to be subject to the same abstract restriction (assuming that, in fact, the smartphones are). While it'd be possible to "root" your GPS and install firmware that could enable a readout of compass heading, at that point I"m going to agree with Erik's "MacGuyver" characterization.

That is interesting because I was also (seriously) thinking my standalone GPS might be in violation.  I have one that can also function as a traffic GPS and a media player.  Which means I can put a golf instruction video on it.  In fact I HAVE golf instruction videos on it.  Now I would never access them during a round, but would their mere existence make the device non-conforming?  But if the ruling only applies to smartphones and PDAs then am I safe?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by turtleback

That is interesting because I was also (seriously) thinking my standalone GPS might be in violation.  I have one that can also function as a traffic GPS and a media player.  Which means I can put a golf instruction video on it.  In fact I HAVE golf instruction videos on it.  Now I would never access them during a round, but would their mere existence make the device non-conforming?  But if the ruling only applies to smartphones and PDAs then am I safe?

You can carry an instruction book around with you on the golf course. Or notes from your coach. Or pictures with notes on them showing you something about your golf swing.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by iacas

You can carry an instruction book around with you on the golf course. Or notes from your coach. Or pictures with notes on them showing you something about your golf swing.

Precisely, provided they were created before the round commenced. Any note from your coach (or anyone else except your partner or caddie) during your round or comment of your swing on that round would be a breach of R 8-1.

And here's the whole point. Any data created during your round is a no-no for you to use if it fulfills the definition of Advice. The nature of application is irrelevant.

[jwrussell]

Just a couple of quick notes on the compass discussion.  Any GPS can be used as a general compass so long as you are moving.  Older GPS systems (if anyone hunts, think of the older Garmin Rino GPS/Radios) calculate the output for a digital compass in this way, which is why you have to be moving for them to give you an accurate reading.  I used one this past November during a hunting trip and have to say it was kind of a PITA to deal with.  However, newer systems (and this includes the iPhones 3GS and later) have chips in them that enable them to output compass information while standing still.  I don't know the specifics of how they work, but I believe it has something to do with measuring RF signal strength when compared to information from the accelerometers within the phone that help it determine where it is on the X and Y axis.  Here's a link to some of the more technical stuff:

http://www.quora.com/iPhone/How-does-the-compass-on-the-iPhone-work

[iacas]

Yes, the compass on the iPhone isn't using the GPS. It's using magnetic fields, not timing information from satellites.

Originally Posted by jwrussell

Just a couple of quick notes on the compass discussion.  Any GPS can be used as a general compass so long as you are moving.  Older GPS systems (if anyone hunts, think of the older Garmin Rino GPS/Radios) calculate the output for a digital compass in this way, which is why you have to be moving for them to give you an accurate reading.  I used one this past November during a hunting trip and have to say it was kind of a PITA to deal with.  However, newer systems (and this includes the iPhones 3GS and later) have chips in them that enable them to output compass information while standing still.  I don't know the specifics of how they work, but I believe it has something to do with measuring RF signal strength when compared to information from the accelerometers within the phone that help it determine where it is on the X and Y axis.  Here's a link to some of the more technical stuff:

http://www.quora.com/iPhone/How-does-the-compass-on-the-iPhone-work

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by iacas

You can carry an instruction book around with you on the golf course. Or notes from your coach. Or pictures with notes on them showing you something about your golf swing.

Thanks, I hadn't realized that.

I also have Tour Tempo* audio files on it that I use when practicing.  Would that cause me a problem?  I am pretty sure it would be a violation for me to listen to them while playing.  So is it a violation for them to even be on the device when I am playing even if I don't listen to them?

* in case you aren't familiar with this it is tones that you use to modify the tempo of your swing to certain supposedly optimum tempos.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by turtleback

1) I am pretty sure it would be a violation for me to listen to them while playing.

2) So is it a violation for them to even be on the device when I am playing even if I don't listen to them?

1) Correct. See http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-14/#14-3/17

2) No, unless the device has a DMD and you use it.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

1) Correct

2) No, unless the device has a DMD and you use it.

Well, that is the point, it is a standalone GPS rangefinder that is also a media player.  But it is not a smartphone or PDA.

[newtogolf]

1) Not totally correct - according to the rule you could listen while walking or driving in between holes.  The purpose of the rule is to prevent a golfer from using the audio device and headphones to block out external noise or for timing purposes while playing.

2) Doesn't matter if the device has a DMD on it.  Nothing in the rule states what content can or cannot be loaded on the device it has to do with "prolonged" listening during a round.  Listening to Tour Tempo throughout the round and while you're actually swinging would be a violation of the rule.  Listening to it while driving to your next hole is legal based on my understanding.

Originally Posted by Rulesman

1) Correct. See http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-14/#14-3/17

2) No, unless the device has a DMD and you use it.

[Clambake]

Originally Posted by iacas

But okay, let's ban all smart phones because they have microphones and can "measure" wind speed. It's fine by me, but good luck to you with that one.

Actually, there is an iPhone app called Wind Speed that does just that:

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/wind-speed-measure-winds-up/id308137007?mt=8