Smart Phone GPS Now Not Allowed?

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

To make it simpler for you guys the rules breaks down as simply as this:

Device includes Illegal features = banned for use as DMD in tournaments

Device doesn't include illegal features = permitted to use as DMD in tournaments

The above is clearly understood by everyone in this thread. What is under debate is whether that makes sense or not.

And the rangefinder analogy does not apply. You can easily look at a rangefinder model number and know whether it conforms. You cannot as easily take someone's phone away from them and scroll through all the apps to make sure there are no illegal ones.  Until/unless there's a rule requiring such a search before a player tees off at a tournament (and good luck getting that kind of invasion of privacy to fly, btw), the only options that make sense are:

1) Ban all use of smart phones, OR:

2) Since the existing rules are already trusting us to not have any of those illegal apps installed if we're using a DMD, there's no reason they can't also trust us to just not use them if they *are* installed.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

1) Ban all use of smart phones, OR:

For information:

The RBs have advised that a Committee cannot ban their use as DMDs by Local Rule because, if a device conforms, it can be used under the R&A;/USGA’s Specimen Local Rule.

A Committee can ban them by a “Regulation”, but if a player can insist on using a “conforming” mobile phone under the Specimen Local Rule and can therefore not be penalised under the Rules of Golf for doing so, it seems illogical for the Committee to take action for breach of a “regulation”.  Under Rule 33-7 a Committee may disqualify a player for a “serious breach of etiquette”.  However, the legal use of a “conforming” mobile phone can hardly be described as a “serious breach of etiquette”.  Likewise, it would be inappropriate to bar a player from entering or playing in other competitions, for breach of a regulation disallowing the use of a mobile phone which the Specimen Local Rule allows.

However, I do find it odd that the following is approved:

Trolleys with a distance-measuring capability may be used provided any other features, which are non-conforming, are disabled (e.g. ‘taped up’ or switched off).

[zeg]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

To make it simpler for you guys the rules breaks down as simply as this:

Device includes Illegal features = banned for use as DMD in tournaments

Device doesn't include illegal features = permitted to use as DMD in tournaments

That is the bottom line. Basically, they have opted not to make a special exception for smart phones. The text they added to the rule clarifies how this applies to smart phones, that is all.  You may not like the decision, and certainly it's fair to question the rule, but it's a tricky issue to address. The current solution is not at all a sign of technological ignorance, it just means the powers that be don't share your opinion that it's all that important to permit smart phone DMDs. The logic they've applied is as just about as consistent as you can get in a body of rules the size of the RoG.

[newtogolf]

I wasn't clear, the earliest rangefinders didn't include slope measurement so they were all approved.  Once rangefinders started to show up with slope measurement they singled out rangefinders with the ability to measure slope.

I agree it was a reach but the SmartPhone market is just starting out.  Who would have thought a phone would have a 10MP camera built into it 10 years ago?  Companies like Bushnell, Garmin, Sky Caddie will soon face issues that Flip and some digital camera companies have in that people don't want to carry multiple devices when one can do it all.  They may push their technology to include cell technology, Sky Caddie already supports WiFi so internet browsing, google voice and texting would be possible if they wanted to support it.

Originally Posted by iacas

FWIW, I'm not sure "All Rangefinders at one time were permitted by the USGA" is right. I'm almost certain it's not. Measuring slope has always been illegal. Distances have, for 50+ years, been considered common knowledge (and not "advice").

That's true, but I still think you mis-spoke when you talked earlier about smart phone manufacturers releasing devices for golfers. That ain't gonna happen.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I wasn't clear, the earliest rangefinders didn't include slope measurement so they were all approved.  Once rangefinders started to show up with slope measurement they singled out rangefinders with the ability to measure slope.

No, you were perfectly clear on that point, and I still disagree with your recollection of history.

The USGA/R&A; didn't change the rules "once rangefinders started to show up with slope measurement" and thus there was no "singling out." Devices that measured slope were always illegal under the Rules of Golf. The first time 14-3 allowed DMDs back in 2005 the rule included the language specifying that they should measure distance only.

Heck, DMDs which measure slope pre-date the rule change at the end of 2005.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

To make it simpler for you guys the rules breaks down as simply as this:

Device includes Illegal features = banned for use as DMD in tournaments

Device doesn't include illegal features = permitted to use as DMD in tournaments

We're not stupid, we know what the rule IS, we are talking about whether it makes sense and what would be a more logical rule.

But even so, you are wrong about what the rule IS .  Not banned for use as DMD in tournaments , banned for use in golf .  If they are illegal for tournaments how are they not illegal for every round of golf?  Some of us like to play by the rules all of the time, not just in tournaments.  And this is one of the reasons this is such a terrible ruling.  It encourages just the mindset you exhibit here.  That it is OK to break certain rules unless you are in a tournament.  Even if a round is acceptable for handicap purposes it doesn't mean the rules were not violated under this ruling if a smartphone DMD app is used, since the smartphone undoubtedly has SOME feature the USGA would object to.  This ruling fosters the casual attitude towards the rules that you just displayed.

And NO ONE has yet come up with ANY logical reason why I can be trusted to not access a forbidden feature while making a call or texting but I can't be trusted when using a DMD app.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

However, I do find it odd that the following is approved:

Trolleys with a distance-measuring capability may be used provided any other features, which are non-conforming, are disabled (e.g. ‘taped up’ or switched off).

Well, that sure is interesting.  I imagine a trolley is a push-cart of sorts?

How is this interpreted:

1) The trolley itself can be used as a golf cart, as long as the distance-measuring device (which has a non-conforming capability) is not used, or

2) The distance-measuring capability of a trolley can be used as long as the non conforming capabilities of the DMD are disabled?

Brandon

[newtogolf]

Sorry you're correct, I misread / misunderstood the purpose of 14-3b

Originally Posted by iacas

No, you were perfectly clear on that point, and I still disagree with your recollection of history.

The USGA/R&A; didn't change the rules "once rangefinders started to show up with slope measurement" and thus there was no "singling out." Devices that measured slope were always illegal under the Rules of Golf. The first time 14-3 allowed DMDs back in 2005 the rule included the language specifying that they should measure distance only.

Heck, DMDs which measure slope pre-date the rule change at the end of 2005.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Well, that sure is interesting.  I imagine a trolley is a push-cart of sorts?

How is this interpreted:

1) The trolley itself can be used as a golf cart, as long as the distance-measuring device (which has a non-conforming capability) is not used, or

2) The distance-measuring capability of a trolley can be used as long as the non conforming capabilities of the DMD are disabled?

Brandon

Yes, a trolley is a push cart.

Case 2 applies. I believe the Motocaddy S3 was one such but it may have been changed.

[mymizunosrock]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

The above is clearly understood by everyone in this thread. What is under debate is whether that makes sense or not.

And the rangefinder analogy does not apply. You can easily look at a rangefinder model number and know whether it conforms. You cannot as easily take someone's phone away from them and scroll through all the apps to make sure there are no illegal ones.  Until/unless there's a rule requiring such a search before a player tees off at a tournament (and good luck getting that kind of invasion of privacy to fly, btw), the only options that make sense are:

1) Ban all use of smart phones, OR:

2) Since the existing rules are already trusting us to not have any of those illegal apps installed if we're using a DMD, there's no reason they can't also trust us to just not use them if they *are* installed.

Why are people having trouble understanding this??

I disagree with the range finder comment though. You would have to work in a golf shop (or be a hardcore gear head) to know what models contain illegal features and identify them just by looking at them, all of them. Its hardly common knowledge, yet we are trusting those that are using them, without question, that they are not using the illegal functions should they contain them.

[jgreen85]

Originally Posted by turtleback

And NO ONE has yet come up with ANY logical reason why I can be trusted to not access a forbidden feature while making a call or texting but I can't be trusted when using a DMD app.

You've been 100% right on in this thread, except for this comment turtleback. I've provided a reason. It's because the gps/laser manufacturers were losing money to smartphones, so they lobbied the USGA to create a stupid rule. Just follow the money guys.

Here's the rule in practical terms: "You can use your smartphone for any and everything except for as a DMD. You need a dedicated device for that, or you, I suppose, can go old school."

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by mymizunosrock

Why are people having trouble understanding this??

I disagree with the range finder comment though. You would have to work in a golf shop (or be a hardcore gear head) to know what models contain illegal features and identify them just by looking at them, all of them. Its hardly common knowledge, yet we are trusting those that are using them, without question, that they are not using the illegal functions should they contain them.

Wouldn't it be fairly easy to have a check-in process by which a person would declare what electronic equipment they would be using for a given tournament round?

Brandon

[mymizunosrock]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Wouldn't it be fairly easy to have a check-in process by which a person would declare what electronic equipment they would be using for a given tournament round?

Brandon

yeah, it would be, and make sure all illegal apps either dont exist or are disabled by turning off your mobile broadband. And while you're at it, they can check everything else you use to make sure its conforming. This is the hole point about the inconsistency of the rule. Either ban everything or let it go back to the way it was and let people use what they have and trust us that we will not use the non conforming features. Honestly, is it really worth it to use a banned app or device and risk getting caught and your club finding out?? How could you show up the following week when you have been labelled a cheat...

[sacm3bill]

The funny thing is this new rule doesn't do anything to reduce cheating anyway, since it's unenforceable.

In auto racing there is the concept of "tech shed" legal, which is defined by what is enforceable. For example, in a “spec” class where limited modifications are allowed, there might be a rule in place to prohibit machining internal engine parts to exactly match the factory specs for weight, dimension, and variances, since an advantage could be gained from that.  But as long as those parts are measured in the tech shed after a race and found to be in compliance, there is no way to prove whether they were machined to be perfect or if they just happened to come out of the factory that way. As a result, most of the successful racers would machine their internal engine parts, even though it was blatantly against the written rules.  The rules committees, since they were informed and not naive, eventually realized they needed to make rules that could be enforced, and not just hope that people would follow the “spirit” of the rule.

While I am proud to say that golfers as a rule have more integrity than participants in auto racing and other “If you ain’t cheatin’, you ain’t tryin’ ” sports, we’re still in a similar situation here. As I believe others have pointed out, other than a few exceptions (mostly involving "intent") most violations of the rules of golf can be easily observed: Causing a ball to move, carrying more than 14 clubs, grounding a club in a hazard, using a weather app, etc. In contrast, although you *can* just look over someone’s shoulder and see they’re using a GPS app, you cannot easily (if at all) determine if they also have some illegal app installed which would make their use of the GPS app illegal.

So even discounting all the other arguments that I and others have made for this rule being nonsensical, it still has the quality of being virtually unenforceable.

(Note that at this point I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind – but given that ultimately I believe the USGA is in general an informed and non-naive body, I also believe (and will predict) that this rule will not stand as is.  We’ll see I guess…)

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

– but given that ultimately I believe the USGA is in general an informed and non-naive body, I also believe (and will predict) that this rule will not stand as is.  We’ll see I guess…)

I don't believe you are wrong. It is exercising many minds at the moment.

[Mordan]

In thinking a little more about this issue, I've come around to seeing a little more logic to the current position than I did previously. I think they've dropped the ball by not reacting quicker to the changes in technology, but I can see how they got to the current position.

The rules currently govern what you may or may not do with your smart phone on the golf course. You may make phone calls, send texts, access the internet, play games, as long as you do not violate the rules regarding receiving advice or measuring local conditions. The capabilities of your phone are irrelevent, it's your actions that matter and the rules have been this way all along.

As soon as you use your phone as a DMD, a second set of rules applying only to DMDs come into play. And this includes the ruling they made pre-smart phone DMDs whereby a device may not include an illegal feature (slope on rangefinders mostly) regardless of whether or not it's active. That rule probably made sense at the time as those DMDs had no other purpose, and thus would never be used legally under non-DMD rules.

So I can see how they got to the current situation by effectively applying the existing rules to a new situation, but unfortunately it's left us with rulings that do appear very illogical to the owner of a smart phone who wants use it as a DMD.

Rulesman, will we have to wait for the next rules update in 2016 for there to be any chance of a change or is there scope for an update in the meantime?

[Rulesman]

There is nothing to stop them issuing a new Decision before 2016 but I don't think it will happen tomorrow. The implications are too difficult to get a quick fix. But the vibes are that they are working on it.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Mordan

...As soon as you use your phone as a DMD, a second set of rules applying only to DMDs come into play. And this includes the ruling they made pre-smart phone DMDs whereby a device may not include an illegal feature (slope on rangefinders mostly) regardless of whether or not it's active. That rule probably made sense at the time as those DMDs had no other purpose, and thus would never be used legally under non-DMD rules.

So I can see how they got to the current situation by effectively applying the existing rules to a new situation, but unfortunately it's left us with rulings that do appear very illogical to the owner of a smart phone who wants use it as a DMD.

Yep, I would agree with all that. I think their only failure is they didn't understand that the rule effectively bans use of all smartphones as DMDs because of the built-in illegal features they have.