Myth of Maintaining Your Address Flex in the Rear Knee

[iacas]

In the case of the right knee straightening. At least you agree with that it should.  Also don't quote Ben Hogan. Here is the thing about Ben Hogan, what he was describing what "HE DID". Not what you can do, or I can do, or any other amateur can do, but only what "HE DID" in his golf swing. It is a feel that worked for him. It might work for someone else, but it is not a general "what happens" with everyone.

Thanks @saevel25 you saved me a lot of typing.

@Jack Player , Hogan's books and writing were about what he FELT like he did. He also said you "bump" the hips on the downswing and then rotate/turn them, yet Hogan slid his hips a TON. What felt like a tiny "bump" to him was anything but.

Also, @Jack Player , I won't be so rude as to say that people having a discussion "cheeses" me off - it doesn't - but it's disappointing when someone comes on and starts arguing without even knowing what's being said, and with their only real backup being what a player SAYS they FELT they were doing in their golf swing.

I have a question for you, then, since you say you should never teach the student to extend the right knee at all: what do you do with a guy who doesn't extend his right knee quite enough? It's not happening automatically for him? Do you just say "well, sir, you are a factory reject - it is supposed to happen automatically because Ben Hogan said so, and you are not doing it, thus you are faulty and unfixable?"

Both of these golfers needed to understand what some extension of the right knee could do for their swing:

Some golfers are "factory rejects" because they extend too early, too much, or both, and not because it happens "automatically."

(He had another issue with the way he loaded his arms and the wrists, of course, but focus on the belly button down).

Shoulders do not pull the hips. The hips pull the hips. If a golfer can get to that position with just feeling shoulder turn good job. Some people might feel their hips going back and up, or a stretch in the lower right back. Some might need to feel the knee moving. Does this mean that it is out of sequence, NO. Feeling something move means nothing in the order of which they do move.

Exactly. Feels are different for everyone.

P.S. I see the URL in your email address, @Jack Player , and we have a vigilant membership who will report any signs of spamming. I'm sure it won't come to that, though, and your email address is just something else you do.

[Jack Player]

Well, I can't continue to argue with you guys because you have a delusional fallback to refute everything I say.

I will just leave you with this.

I think we can all agree that the hips do turn less than the shoulders during the golf swing.  And that the golf swing is about consistency so we want to turn the hips and shoulders back the same respective amount on every swing (of equal shot distance).  If that is the case then what would be the more repeatable way to accomplish a shoulder and hip turn:

1)  Turn your hips and shoulders back at the same time and then stop turning your hips at the same spot every time but continue turning your shoulders until you have a full shoulder turn

2)  Turn your shoulders back and let them start turning the hips (which they will start doing at the same point every time).  Keep turning your shoulders back to a full turn.  The hips will continue to rotate with the shoulders but because they started rotating later than the shoulders they will have rotated less than the shoulders.  BUT, because you just let it happen they will always rotate the same amount every time.  Automatic synchronization.

And Iacas, regarding your students not 'getting it'.  It almost always has to do with setup.  If the hips aren't rotating and allowing the right leg to straighten they are usually either lacking secondary spine tilt, sufficient knee flex or are too tense in the hip region.

[iacas]

Well, I can't continue to argue with you guys because you have a delusional fallback to refute everything I say.

Seriously?

I think we can all agree that the hips do turn less than the shoulders during the golf swing. And that the golf swing is about consistency so we want to turn the hips and shoulders back the same respective amount on every swing (of equal shot distance).  If that is the case then what would be the more repeatable way to accomplish a shoulder and hip turn:

I agree that the hips turn less. Duh.

I disagree that "the golf swing is about consistency." The golf swing is about achieving objectives, and a perfectly consistent golf swing that misses the golf ball each time is hardly very "good." Extreme example, and you'll chalk it up to another "delusional fallback," but it makes my point.

2)  Turn your shoulders back and let them start turning the hips (which they will start doing at the same point every time).

You seem to be missing the very simple point that for some players, this simply never happens . Those players need to be taught how to use their hips properly. I posted pictures above of students that - on both sides of the spectrum - had to be taught how to use their hips properly, how to use the extension of their right knees properly (they're all righties - otherwise I prefer to say trail knee).

The very fact that we have a thread on this and that it's eye-opening to people speaks to the fact that a lot of players don't do this stuff correctly.

And Iacas, regarding your students not 'getting it'. It almost always has to do with setup.  If the hips aren't rotating and allowing the right leg to straighten they are usually either lacking secondary spine tilt, sufficient knee flex or are too tense in the hip region.

I disagree, and will leave it at that.

[saevel25]

Well, I can't continue to argue with you guys because you have a delusional fallback to refute everything I say.

I will just leave you with this.

I think we can all agree that the hips do turn less than the shoulders during the golf swing.  And that the golf swing is about consistency so we want to turn the hips and shoulders back the same respective amount on every swing (of equal shot distance).  If that is the case then what would be the more repeatable way to accomplish a shoulder and hip turn:

1)  Turn your hips and shoulders back at the same time and then stop turning your hips at the same spot every time but continue turning your shoulders until you have a full shoulder turn

2)  Turn your shoulders back and let them start turning the hips (which they will start doing at the same point every time).  Keep turning your shoulders back to a full turn.  The hips will continue to rotate with the shoulders but because they started rotating later than the shoulders they will have rotated less than the shoulders.  BUT, because you just let it happen they will always rotate the same amount every time.  Automatic synchronization.

And Iacas, regarding your students not 'getting it'.  It almost always has to do with setup.  If the hips aren't rotating and allowing the right leg to straighten they are usually either lacking secondary spine tilt, sufficient knee flex or are too tense in the hip region.

Umm it's called having the correct information. We don't need to change our opinions because you haven't put out one single piece of evidence besides using the word "FEEL", which isn't evidence at all.

Once again you are confusing "FEEL" with what is actually happening. If a person "FEELS" like they need to straighten the knee more, which gets them to a consistent shoulder and hip rotation on every swing. Just because they don't "FEEL" what you suggest they should "FEEL" doesn't make them wrong.

1) You are assuming the shoulders and hips turn at the same rate. Then the shoulders will continue turning. That is not correct. The hips and shoulders turn at different rates. If the shoulders and hips reach their maximum rotation angle, and if the shoulders turn 2x the amount of the hips (90 degrees versus 45 degrees), than the hips must rotate at twice the speed as the shoulders.

Below is Rory McIlroy's golf swing in terms of how fast his body is moving (Kinetic Chain). Red Line = Pelvis (Hips), Green Line = Thorax (Shoulders), Blue Line (Arms), Brown Line (Club)

So what does this tells us. As you can see Rory's hip rotation in the backswing (the downward curve) has a rate about half that as his shoulders. You can see his hips and shoulder reach the peak height in near the same position (Time). You can see that the hips and shoulder also start when the swing starts. The red line isn't ZERO for any significant amount of time at the beginning of the swing. This means a few things. First Rory, who was number 1 in the world, starts his swing with his whole body (hips, torso, shoulders, and arms). The hips rotate at half the rate of the shoulders, meaning they are in sync together because the hips rotate near half the distance as the shoulders.

Now what you are describing what should happen is the hips should not move, the shoulder should move pulling the hips. If this was true, then the red line should be flat for nearly half the time to the top of the swing. Till about 0.325 seconds. That does not happen. There scientific proof by measurements on one of the best swings in the world. I got graphs, measurements, and you got "FEEL".

[iacas]

Umm it's called having the correct information. We don't need to change our opinions because you haven't put out one single piece of evidence besides using the word "FEEL", which isn't evidence at all.

That's not true Matt. He's also said it's AUTOMATIC (ostensibly because Ben Hogan said so).

[saevel25]

That's not true Matt. He's also said it's AUTOMATIC (ostensibly because Ben Hogan said so).

Dah, I missed that one.

[mvmac]

And that the golf swing is about consistency so we want to turn the hips and shoulders back the same respective amount on every swing (of equal shot distance).

High handicappers often have very consistent swings.

Well, I can't continue to argue with you guys because you have a delusional fallback to refute everything I say.

We're not the ones confusing feels with reality.

If that is the case then what would be the more repeatable way to accomplish a shoulder and hip turn:

Depends on what the player needs. A guy that moves his head down and forward on the backswing is going to feel something very different than the guy that moves it up and backward on the backswing. You can't just give each guy the same swing thought.

[JPK1988]

I swear I am not trying to troll or beat a dead horse... but I think we can all agree (including nearly every golf commentator, every time Adam tees it up), that this is one of the most fundamentally sound and perfected golf swings today, if not ever.  There is very little knee straightening happening here, that is really tough to argue. His right hip absolutely goes behind him and up a bit, but how does he remain so flexed?

I ask because I know for me personally, maintaining this amount of flex while staying centered is SO difficult, if not impossible.  I do straighten my right leg, not consciously or purposefully; in fact I've spent the better part of two years on the course and in the gym trying to be able to do what he does in terms of leg action...and I'm still not even close.  I have been told not to maintain flex and NOT hyper extend, and have only recently seen the guys here say otherwise?

So what's right? Wasting time working on this move? Maybe its more of a personal choice/ feel/ ability than its been made out to be in this thread. I don't know.

Be gentle.

Also.. remembered reading this last year or two years ago in Golf Digest, just found the article.....

[Ernest Jones]

The black pants make it hard to really see. Also, you won't necessarily see a "straight" back leg, just a "straighter than at address" back leg.

[JPK1988]

The black pants make it hard to really see. Also, you won't necessarily see a "straight" back leg, just a "straighter than at address" back leg.

Agreed. Here is better contrast. I would actually submit that there is more knee flex at the top than at address.

[RandallT]

I caught a glimpse of Holly Sonders today on the simulator, and her right knee stays quite flexed. I don't think she gets much hip turn. Then again I think they were doing a segment on hitting into the wind, so maybe it wasn't her normal swing. And don't ask why I was focusing on her knees.

[newtogolf]

The debate here demonstrates the difference between a good player and a pro instructor. @Jack Player is a +.7 golfer who clearly has a good enough golf swing and understanding of his swing that it works for him. @iacas is a professional golf instructor who's profession is to teach less experienced and athletic individuals how to make the swing sequences to achieve a proper swing.

5 star chef's aren't always great teachers because they cook based on experience and feel, not recipes.  When Hogan wrote his book he didn't have the benefit of computers, slow motion video and Trakman to analyze his swing so all he could write about was what he felt.

You guys are likely never going to reach consensus because you're approaching the problem from two very different sides.

[saevel25]

The black pants make it hard to really see. Also, you won't necessarily see a "straight" back leg, just a "straighter than at address" back leg.

Agree, most people see straighten and think, STRAIGHT, when straighten is describing and action not the end result.

Also.. remembered reading this last year or two years ago in Golf Digest, just found the article.....

Please don't quote golf digest. They are terrible, utter crap. They might get something right maybe 1% of the time, if that. Its an easy source to look up, its just a bad one.

I swear I am not trying to troll or beat a dead horse... but I think we can all agree (including nearly every golf commentator, every time Adam tees it up), that this is one of the most fundamentally sound and perfected golf swings today, if not ever.  There is very little knee straightening happening here, that is really tough to argue. His right hip absolutely goes behind him and up a bit, but how does he remain so flexed?

I ask because I know for me personally, maintaining this amount of flex while staying centered is SO difficult, if not impossible.  I do straighten my right leg, not consciously or purposefully; in fact I've spent the better part of two years on the course and in the gym trying to be able to do what he does in terms of leg action...and I'm still not even close.  I have been told not to maintain flex and NOT hyper extend, and have only recently seen the guys here say otherwise?

So what's right? Wasting time working on this move? Maybe its more of a personal choice/ feel/ ability than its been made out to be in this thread. I don't know.

Does Adam Scott keep more flex in his knee than most golfers, yes. Is his swing the zenith that all swings should strive for, NOPE. I would never say anyone swing is perfect. Did he lead the PGA in driving accuracy and GIR's last year, nope. Good looking swings don't mean much.

I would say he is an outlier, meaning he is on the fringe of what might be called acceptable knee flex. If you really want to find a flaw in Scott swing, its his shoulders and hips swing too shallow. He gets his hands to work well, but its counter to what his shoulders and hips do.

If it isn't hurting you, then its fine. Let me say this. Just because you say you feel like you keep knee flex, doesn't mean it happens. If there is one thing you will learn quickly here, feel ain't real. Sounds counter productive, but it is true, and is backed up by video evidence. Also, this thread is just saying that the right knee does loose some flex, the degree of which depends on the golfer, and actively maintaining it isn't required as general rule of thumb. Shouldn't be given as a tip to anyone unless giving specific instruction based on video analysis showing they need to. Like if someone actually locks their knee.

[mvmac]

I swear I am not trying to troll or beat a dead horse... but I think we can all agree (including nearly every golf commentator, every time Adam tees it up), that this is one of the most fundamentally sound and perfected golf swings today, if not ever.  There is very little knee straightening happening here, that is really tough to argue. His right hip absolutely goes behind him and up a bit, but how does he remain so flexed?

Tough to see with the black pants but the knee does lose some, less than most. Scott is still able to turn his hips "steep enough" because the left knee is gaining flex.

I ask because I know for me personally, maintaining this amount of flex while staying centered is SO difficult, if not impossible.  I do straighten my right leg, not consciously or purposefully; in fact I've spent the better part of two years on the course and in the gym trying to be able to do what he does in terms of leg action...and I'm still not even close.  I have been told not to maintain flex and NOT hyper extend, and have only recently seen the guys here say otherwise?

I agree it's difficult, which is why we don't recommend it

Maintaining the same flex throughout the backswing doesn't give the golfer any addition benefits. The knee decreasing in flex does. Did you read the first post in the thread?

So what's right? Wasting time working on this move? Maybe its more of a personal choice/ feel/ ability than its been made out to be in this thread. I don't know.

What's right is to look at the biomechanics of achieving a centered pivot. The knees have to change flex in order for the hips to turn and turn steep enough. If the knees don't change, the shoulders will turn too flat and the head will translate to the right.

Here's Dustin Johnson, important to look at what players do, not what they say they do.

Good video for you to check out

[iacas]

@mvmac answered, so I'll be quicker about this…

Agreed. Here is better contrast. I would actually submit that there is more knee flex at the top than at address.

There's not more knee flex. It's not a lot less, but it's less. This is where looking at something in 2D can make things look odd. Just like for example how Sergio Garcia seems to get so much lag, but you're fooled looking face-on because he lays the shaft down so much, so the angle appears much more acute than it is in reality.

Here's my simple answer:

If you can turn your torso 100° or so without turning the hips much, and thus without the right knee extending much, go for it.

Also note that you'll want to avoid over-flexing the right knee during the downswing, too.

Agree, most people see straighten and think, STRAIGHT, when straighten is describing and action not the end result.

Straight is a binary state, and "straighten" means to "make straight." Almost nobody straightens their trail knee during the backswing (not amongst good players, that is). So we prefer to use "extend" or "decrease flex".

P.S. Adam Scott and Ernie Els both have an interesting method in that they both flex their left knees more than they decrease flex in their right knees.

[JPK1988]

I agree it's difficult, which is why we don't recommend it

Maintaining the same flex throughout the backswing doesn't give the golfer any addition benefits. Losing some flex does. Did you read the first post in the thread?

Absolutely did, and watched the entire video (its been a slow work day haha).  Obviously, there are so many tour pros and top players who extended the knee to some degree, it must be acceptable if not preferred.  Makes me feel better about my inability to maintain flexion.  Re: Dustin Johnson he absolutely straightens that back leg, although I have heard him (and Butch Harmon) say on multiple occasions that they've worked to reign that in...Maybe just a matter of less straightening vs. maintaining total flexon.

@mvmac answered, so I'll be quicker about this…

There's not more knee flex. It's not a lot less, but it's less. This is where looking at something in 2D can make things look odd. Just like for example how Sergio Garcia seems to get so much lag, but you're fooled looking face-on because he lays the shaft down so much, so the angle appears much more acute than it is in reality.

Here's my simple answer:

If you can turn your torso 100° or so without turning the hips much, and thus without the right knee extending much, go for it.

Also note that you'll want to avoid over-flexing the right knee during the downswing, too.

This! This is what I am starting to believe more than anything, that it is a matter of flexibility.  Torso, back, hamstrings? I am not sure what is so flexible, probably a combination of all.

That being said, if you could achieve that level of flexibility...does maintaining the flex in the knee become advantageous, or at the very least a more stable base against which you coil?  There must be a reason why he doesn't straighten, which seems to be the more natural move.  Is it because he can or is it serving a purpose?

Please don't quote golf digest. They are terrible, utter crap.  They might get something right maybe 1% of the time, if that. Its an easy source to look up, its just a bad one.

Why is that ? If it comes from a tour player's mouth, or from his instructor, why is that crap?  What is your basis for this argument?  I am more than willing to listen, but that is groundless sh*t slinging as it stands now.

Does Adam Scott keep more flex in his knee than most golfers, yes. Is his swing the zenith that all swings should strive for, NOPE. I would never say anyone swing is perfect. Did he lead the PGA in driving accuracy and GIR's last year, nope. Good looking swings don't mean much.

Maybe not the zenith, though you yourself just admitted there is no zenith, so one might as well pick one.  If we are to place any stock in those who watch the game most often (commentators/analysts) who claim his swing one of the best in golf, then I don't see why not his.  Although I am sure they are crap too.

And no, no he didn't.  He just had a win and two top 5's in the majors.  But okay, point taken.

I would say he is an outlier, meaning he is on the fringe of what might be called acceptable knee flex. If you really want to find a flaw in Scott swing, its his shoulders and hips swing too shallow. He gets his hands to work well, but its counter to what his shoulders and hips do.

If it isn't hurting you, then its fine. Let me say this. Just because you say you feel like you keep knee flex, doesn't mean it happens. If there is one thing you will learn quickly here, feel ain't real. Sounds counter productive, but it is true, and is backed up by video evidence.

I don't know what it is about you, but your watchdog mentality towards all things Simple Keys, and your groveling toward the Pros on the site at any point when mechanics are discussed, is almost comical.  My original post had zero negative intent; in fact I am a big fan of Mike and Eric, and have learned a TON from what they've shared about Simple Keys.  I posed a question, looking for clarification, and you turned it into an argument.  As a mostly quiet observer of this forum for quite some time, I have noticed that you are incapable of having a conversation about mechanics without reverting to the 5 keys with aggressive fervor.  I think you comment with some rude retort on 95% of all things mechanics and swing related.  RELAX.  That is the beauty of the golf swing.  It is never a perfect science, and questions are asked and answered and discussed LOGICALLY, all the time.  No need to turn defensive; no one is attacking your nest.  Maybe it's just the way in which you answer or your choice of words, but you are irksome.

[iacas]

Before I begin, @JPK1988 , please note that I took five minutes to reformat your post so that it didn't include un-responded-to posts (both by Mike, I think), and red text inside someone else's quote. Please format responses so we can all respond to them.

Obviously, there are so many tour pros and top players who extended the knee to some degree, it must be acceptable if not preferred.

FWIW, I think it's clearly much closer to "preferred" than "acceptable."

This! This is what I am starting to believe more than anything, that it is a matter of flexibility.  Torso, back, hamstrings? I am not sure what is so flexible, probably a combination of all.

Again, it's a bit more than that (it affects the plane the shoulders turn on, and thus Key #4, and many players who don't lose much flex in the trail knee will over-flex it on the downswing), but the ability to turn your torso 100° or so is still the biggest issue.

Also note in the "spoiler" tags what that causes in Ernie's swing - head goes towards the ball and down, then he has to early extend to hit it solidly. It's a compensation. He's good at it, but he hits a few thousand golf balls every few days, too. The average golfer should do all they can to remove compensations.

That being said, if you could achieve that level of flexibility...does maintaining the flex in the knee become advantageous, or at the very least a more stable base against which you coil? There must be a reason why he doesn't straighten, which seems to be the more natural move.  Is it because he can or is it serving a purpose?

I disagree. He probably doesn't because he never has, and he never has because he's never had to.

Why is that ? If it comes from a tour player's mouth, or from his instructor, why is that crap?  What is your basis for this argument?  I am more than willing to listen, but that is groundless sh*t slinging as it stands now.

I won't speak for whomever posted that, but historically, "what a Tour player says they do" is not typically the best way to get advice.

Maybe not the zenith, though you yourself just admitted there is no zenith, so one might as well pick one.  If we are to place any stock in those who watch the game most often (commentators/analysts) who claim his swing one of the best in golf, then I don't see why not his.  Although I am sure they are crap too.

Everyone who plays golf on the PGA Tour is a brilliant ball striker. That's how they get there.

So if you consider that 99% of them decrease the flex in their trail knee… that points more towards that being the model - the commonality - than just considering one swing (or two, if you want to count Ernie).

In other words, the amount by which Adam Scott's swing is "better" than anyone else's is close to 0.01%, and even then, it's probably not really any better, but announcers find it aesthetically pleasing for whatever reason.

Note you won't hear them talking about what a great swing he's got on weeks when he's struggling. Phil Mickelson's swing is rarely used as a "model" for things, but the guy's won 40+ times on the PGA Tour alone.

[mvmac]

Absolutely did, and watched the entire video (its been a slow work day haha).  Obviously, there are so many tour pros and top players who extended the knee to some degree, it must be acceptable if not preferred.  Makes me feel better about my inability to maintain flexion.

Yes your inability the maintain the address flexion is a good thing. Which you could call the "standard" knee action utilized by the best players in the world.

Re: Dustin Johnson he absolutely straightens that back leg, although I have heard him (and Butch Harmon) say on multiple occasions that they've worked to reign that in...Maybe just a matter of less straightening vs. maintaining total flexon.

Could be or maybe it's a feel that it doesn't change flex. Butch doesn't use video so they probably rely more on feels than looking at it.

Note you won't hear them talking about what a great swing he's got on weeks when he's struggling. Phil Mickelson's swing is rarely used as a "model" for things, but the guy's won 40+ times on the PGA Tour alone.

And he decreases it as much as anyone (except Bubba) One of the best ball strikers in the last ten years.