Myth of Maintaining Your Address Flex in the Rear Knee

[Ernest Jones]

Congrats, with what you just said you could be a top 100 instructor :beer:   Living up to your avatar name

Thanks @mvmac , what can I say, between you, @iacas and my Evolvr coaches I've had the opportunity to learn a hell of a lot from some of the best in the world. I just hope I can one day do it as well as I can explain it! Looking forward to hopping back on Evolvr once the snow is gone. :beer:

[mpb1472]

I've gotten into this a little on this thread and on another thread about flaring the feet in the set-up.  Important to not only flare the feet (turn them out) but also have the knees turned out as well.  I'll re-post that info here about how the body works and how it makes sense to turn the feet out, especially the rear foot, rather than perpendicular to the stance line. [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/240595/width/640/height/370/flags/] [/URL]

The hip is a ball and socket joint. The thigh bone (femur) ends with a rounded projection or ball (femoral head), which fits into the socket (acetabulum) of the pelvic girdle.

The hips go from flexion to extension.  Flexion of the hip occurs when the angle between the torso and thigh is decreased. When this angle is increased extension occurs.  Ok so what does all that mean?  We play golf on an inclined plane and to get the hips to accomodate for that, the trail knee has to lose, release flexion.  Check out Rory and Sam Snead, their trail hips are higher than the left at the top of their back swings, it will be the opposite on the followthrough.  Flaring the feet our helps the trail knee lose flexion.

The toothpicks and clay was an example Dana Dahlquist gave me (below)  If we try to turn the hips level, staying in address flexion, that's when we're working against how our bodies we designed to move.

[COLOR=853C3A][URL=http://cdn.thesandtrap.com/b/b2/b2cea059_RoryA1-4Posterior.jpeg] [/URL][/COLOR]

[COLOR=853C3A][URL=http://cdn.thesandtrap.com/f/f8/f802f177_SneadA1-4posterior.jpeg] [/URL][/COLOR]

This thread has been very informative. It is so much easier to turn deeper into my backswing when I straighten my leg. The increase in right foot flare also advocated makes it work even better. Your explanation with the anatomy pictures really makes it more logical. Where can I read and see more of your teaching? I want to see and read the thread on foot flare too. Thanks for your contributions here.

[mpb1472]

I have found the foot flare threads and read your posts. Look forward to reading and learning more from you in 2014. Thanks.

[mvmac]

This thread has been very informative. It is so much easier to turn deeper into my backswing when I straighten my leg. The increase in right foot flare also advocated makes it work even better. Your explanation with the anatomy pictures really makes it more logical. Where can I read and see more of your teaching? I want to see and read the thread on foot flare too. Thanks for your contributions here.

Good you found the thread.  Here's more of our teaching/info.

http://thesandtrap.com/f/4088/swing-thoughts

[Jack Player]

I think that it is very important for us to all remember that just like most of the other correct positions in the golf swing, the straightening of the right leg is simply a reaction to other things going on in the swing.  I'm not implying that the OP or the majority of the members in this thread don't get this, but I hate seeing amateurs read something like this and then go out to the range and consciously start extending the right leg during the back swing. NO NO NO.

The right leg extends because the incline of the hips pull on the knee angle...just like the hips turn because the shoulders pull on them.  Its all a reaction.

[iacas]

I think that it is very important for us to all remember that just like most of the other correct positions in the golf swing, the straightening of the right leg is simply a reaction to other things going on in the swing.  I'm not implying that the OP or the majority of the members in this thread don't get this, but I hate seeing amateurs read something like this and then go out to the range and consciously start extending the right leg during the back swing. NO NO NO.

The right leg extends because the incline of the hips pull on the knee angle...just like the hips turn because the shoulders pull on them.  Its all a reaction.

I disagree. A golfer's right hip doesn't magically go "up" and pull the right knee into extension.

And the hips don't turn because the shoulders "pull" on them - a number of golfers need to be taught to turn their hips, too. And many have to be taught the first thing (extending the trail knee) as well.

[Jack Player]

I disagree. A golfer's right hip doesn't magically go "up" and pull the right knee into extension.

And the hips don't turn because the shoulders "pull" on them - a number of golfers need to be taught to turn their hips, too. And many have to be taught the first thing (extending the trail knee) as well.

Huh?  It certainly does go up.. didn't you watch the video in the OP?  The right hip turns higher due to the inclination of the hips to match the inclination of the shoulders at address. Sure, if your setup is incorrect the hip won't go up naturally.

If you're teaching students to turn their hips you are doing it wrong.  You should teach them to allow the hips to be turned by the shoulders.  Why would you want to consciously try and turn the hips when the shoulders could do it for you perfectly every time?

[iacas]

Huh?  It certainly does go up.. didn't you watch the video in the OP?  The right hip turns higher due to the inclination of the hips to match the inclination of the shoulders at address. Sure, if your setup is incorrect the hip won't go up naturally.

If you don't extend your trail leg, the hip doesn't go up. I'm not sure what's complex about that.

If you're teaching students to turn their hips you are doing it wrong.  You should teach them to allow the hips to be turned by the shoulders.  Why would you want to consciously try and turn the hips when the shoulders could do it for you perfectly every time?

Because for many golfers the shoulders don't "turn the hips." A lot of golfers don't turn their hips much. Some turn them flatter than they should. Some do so because they believe that's what they're supposed to do, some do it because they've never been told otherwise. Thank you for your thoughts.

[mvmac]

I think that it is very important for us to all remember that just like most of the other correct positions in the golf swing, the straightening of the right leg is simply a reaction to other things going on in the swing.  I'm not implying that the OP or the majority of the members in this thread don't get this, but I hate seeing amateurs read something like this and then go out to the range and consciously start extending the right leg during the back swing. NO NO NO.

The right leg extends because the incline of the hips pull on the knee angle...just like the hips turn because the shoulders pull on them.  Its all a reaction.

This guy might disagree with you He now plays what he calls "boring golf".  Knee flexion changing allows the hips to turn and turn on a slant.  Keeping the right knee flexed turns them too flat and makes it hard for the golfer to turn enough.  Golfers, like the player below, will be forced to lift the arms, can create sequencing issues.

If you're teaching students to turn their hips you are doing it wrong.  You should teach them to allow the hips to be turned by the shoulders.  Why would you want to consciously try and turn the hips when the shoulders could do it for you perfectly every time?

Because it works and the hips control what the shoulders do.  Not saying that every players will feel it with the hips, just that there isn't one feel or motion that will make it perfect for everyone.  It might work for you but it doesn't mean you know exactly what is happening.  Feel isn't real.

[Jack Player]

This guy might disagree with you   He now plays what he calls "boring golf".  Knee flexion changing allows the hips to turn and turn on a slant.  Keeping the right knee flexed turns them too flat and makes it hard for the golfer to turn enough.  Golfers, like the player below, will be forced to lift the arms, can create sequencing issues.

Because it works and the hips control what the shoulders do.  Not saying that every players will feel it with the hips, just that there isn't one feel or motion that will make it perfect for everyone.  It might work for you but it doesn't mean you know exactly what is happening.  Feel isn't real.

I never disagreed that the right leg shouldn't straighten.  It absolutely should, I just think that it is a reaction to a proper hip turn and relaxed right leg rather than a deliberate move.

This hips control the shoulders?  When?  During the downswing sure, but during the back swing too?  I will respectfully disagree and say that that is not the easiest way to do things.  That's the beauty of golf though, many ways to get the job done.

[mvmac]

I never disagreed that the right leg shouldn't straighten.  It absolutely should, I just think that it is a reaction to a proper hip turn and relaxed right leg rather than a deliberate move.

You describing a feel, I'm describing what is actually happening, two different things.  Heck a feel for a player could be that the left ear feels lower then the right on the backswing to get the hips to turn/slant. Doesn't change the fact that it's still happening from the ground up.

This hips control the shoulders?  When?  During the downswing sure, but during the back swing too?  I will respectfully disagree and say that that is not the easiest way to do things.  That's the beauty of golf though, many ways to get the job done.

It's clear you don't understand the biomechanics of the swing.  There is a "linkage" occurring.  Ground pressure effecting the ankle flexion, ankle flexion effecting the knee flexion and so on.  Try making a 90* turn without changing the flexion in the rear knee, it's tough to do.

[Jack Player]

You describing a feel, I'm describing what is actually happening, two different things.  Heck a feel for a player could be that the left ear feels lower then the right on the backswing to get the hips to turn/slant. Doesn't change the fact that it's still happening from the ground up.

It's clear you don't understand the biomechanics of the swing.  There is a "linkage" occurring.  Ground pressure effecting the ankle flexion, ankle flexion effecting the knee flexion and so on.  Try making a 90* turn without changing the flexion in the rear knee, it's tough to do.

Wow, do you have fun teaching that to your students?  Just to be clear, regardless of whether it comes from the ground up or top down, you are disagreeing that knee flexion is not a reaction?  So you stand there and tell your students to extend their right knee consciously during the swing?

[mvmac]

So you stand there and tell your students to extend their right knee consciously during the swing?

If that's the feel that gets the job done, then yeah but it's one I would rarely use.  Again you're getting things mixed up, you're thinking feel is real.  There are many feels players can employ to create the knee linkage on the backswing.  That is not the point of the thread, the thread is to discuss what is actually occurring.  We have plenty of threads and videos that get into feels and imagery.

It's kind of like having a steady head thread and you think we're telling every student to keep their heads steady by focusing on actually keeping their head's steady.  There is a lot more at play, you have to sequence a few movements in order for it to stay steady.

Obviously the ear example was silly, just making the point that if a feel "clicks" then go with it but don't confuse it with reality.

Just to be clear, regardless of whether it comes from the ground up or top down, you are disagreeing that knee flexion is not a reaction?

You're saying the knee linkage is a reaction to the hips and the hip turn is a reaction to the shoulders turning, you said the shoulders "pull" on the hips.  There's nothing to disagree with, it's wrong.

[Jack Player]

If that's the feel that gets the job done, then yeah but it's one I would rarely use.  Again you're getting things mixed up, you're thinking feel is real.  There are many feels players can employ to create the knee linkage on the backswing.  That is not the point of the thread, the thread is to discuss what is actually occurring.  We have plenty of threads and videos that get into feels and imagery.

It's kind of like having a steady head thread and you think we're telling every student to keep their heads steady by focusing on actually keeping their head's steady.  There is a lot more at play, you have to sequence a few movements in order for it to stay steady.

Obviously the ear example was silly, just making the point that if a feel "clicks" then go with it but don't confuse it with reality.

You're saying the knee linkage is a reaction to the hips and the hip turn is a reaction to the shoulders turning, you said the shoulders "pull" on the hips.  There's nothing to disagree with, it's wrong.

You biomechanical guys really cheese me off sometimes with that 'feel isn't real' line.  We're all god damn humans aren't we?  I understand that feel isn't always real but a good 'feel' description can go a long way in instruction.

http://si.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1132508/3/index.htm  (start reading 4 lines down at THE HIPS)

If you want to disagree with me about the shoulders pulling the hips then I'm sure no one will put up a big fuss,... but if you're going to use the 'feel isn't real' fallback yet again with Mr Hogan's caps lock description then I'm done with this conversation.

Whenever you hear someone say something (a hall of famer I might add) that doesn't fall in line with your understanding of the swing you can't just cry out 'feel isn't real'

You can't necessary get a full understanding of the way a car engine works by studying how each individual part moves.

[Jack Player]

Also from that article:

Quote:

On the backswing the shoulders are always ahead of the hips as they turn. The shoulders start turning immediately. The hips do not. JUST BEFORE YOUR HANDS REACH HIP LEVEL, THE SHOULDERS, AS THEY TURN, AUTOMATICALLY START PULLING THE HIPS AROUND. AS THE HIPS BEGIN TO TURN, THEY PULL THE LEFT LEG IN TO THE RIGHT. Now let us examine these actions in closer detail.

[billchao]

You can't necessary get a full understanding of the way a car engine works by studying how each individual part moves.

I don't have a leg to stand on in this discussion as I'm not a golf instructor, but as a mechanic, I disagree with this statement.

You can study how an engine works all you want, but unless you understand how each individual part works, you can't fix one.

[Ernest Jones]

I don't have a leg to stand on in this discussion

Lol, good one!

[saevel25]

You biomechanical guys really cheese me off sometimes with that 'feel isn't real' line.  We're all god damn humans aren't we?  I understand that feel isn't always real but a good 'feel' description can go a long way in instruction.

http://si.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1132508/3/index.htm  (start reading 4 lines down at THE HIPS)

If you want to disagree with me about the shoulders pulling the hips then I'm sure no one will put up a big fuss,... but if you're going to use the 'feel isn't real' fallback yet again with Mr Hogan's caps lock description then I'm done with this conversation.

Whenever you hear someone say something (a hall of famer I might add) that doesn't fall in line with your understanding of the swing you can't just cry out 'feel isn't real'

You can't necessary get a full understanding of the way a car engine works by studying how each individual part moves.

duh we are humans, except Tiger, he's an android designed to rule the golfing world. The only reason he is doing bad is because they forgot to maintenance him.

No, what goes a long way is having a player develop his "OWN" feel. That way the instructor isn't trying to fit a square peg into a circle hole.

Here's the thing, we are humans. That means how we feel what is happening in the golf swing is different. My old golf instructor wanted me to feel my left side going through the hitting zone (back of my left hand). I can't feel my left side doing much of anything. I am a total right side dominant guy. Meaning, what he wanted me to "FEEL" wasn't going to happen, even if it works for him.

In the case of the right knee straightening. At least you agree with that it should.  Also don't quote Ben Hogan. Here is the thing about Ben Hogan, what he was describing what "HE DID". Not what you can do, or I can do, or any other amateur can do, but only what "HE DID" in his golf swing. It is a feel that worked for him. It might work for someone else, but it is not a general "what happens" with everyone.

Shoulders do not pull the hips. The hips pull the hips. If a golfer can get to that position with just feeling shoulder turn good job. Some people might feel their hips going back and up, or a stretch in the lower right back. Some might need to feel the knee moving. Does this mean that it is out of sequence, NO. Feeling something move means nothing in the order of which they do move.

Yea but we are talking about the golf swing here, not a car.