Advice or fact?

[joekelly]

I know asking for or giving 'advice' on playing a shot is forbidden. But inquiring about certain facts is OK, such as yardage, location of hazards, etc.  If i ask my fellow competitor, prior to my shot, which club he plans to use or  did use, i think  that is not OK. But if we each have  played our shot to the par 3  green, then may i  ask him which club he used?   Seems to me that this falls into the 'fact' category and is OK.

[Shindig]

Counsel or suggestion that could affect how you play the shot or which club you use for the shot is advice, [i]unless[/i] it is public information. "It's 215 yards from here to the center of the green" is not advice. "I would hit a 6-iron" is advice -- however, if he leaves his bag unguarded, and you can, without touching anything, figure out which club is missing, that's legal. If he puts a towel over it to keep you from doing so, you can't move it. However, if after he hits his shot, and you have yet to play yours, he sees me (and I'm not in your group, perhaps not even playing), he can say to me "Hey Shindig: did you see that awesome 6-iron shot?" -- even if he knows you'll overhear it. Of course, even if he doesn't intend something to be advice, it can be. A few years ago, Greg Chalmers had an issue when his fellow competitor's caddie kept poking around in his (Greg's) bag. Chalmers hit a poor shot and turned around and yelled to the caddie and yelled something like "it was a six-iron, okay?". Oops, that's advice under the rules, and later in the tournament, Chalmers DQ'd himself after realizing what he'd done. Had he called out to the spectators instead, saying "Man, what a poor 6-iron shot that was!", he'd have been fine. Once the information cannot affect your shot, I believe you can ask what club it was; for example, if you and I both hit our shots towards a par-3 green, I think you can ask me what I hit off the tee. Just to be safe, though, I tend to wait until after the round; the people I would ask are inclined to remember what they hit anyway.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by joekelly

. But if we each have  played our shot to the par 3  green, then may i  ask him which club he used?   Seems to me that this falls into the 'fact' category and is OK.

Hi joekelly,

It's Ok.  There are a couple of decisons on this. Here's one.

8-1/7

After Player Has Played to Green He Asks Opponent Or Felow-Competitor What Club He Used In Playing to Green.

Q. A plays his second shot which lands on the green.  B does likewise.  A then asks B what Club he used for  his second shot.  Was A in Breach of Rule 8-1.

A. No

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Shindig

However, if after he hits his shot, and you have yet to play yours, he sees me (and I'm not in your group, perhaps not even playing), he can say to me "Hey Shindig: did you see that awesome 6-iron shot?" -- even if he knows you'll overhear it.

This is true, but be aware of the following decision:

8-1/9

Misleading Statement About Club Selection

Q. A made a statement regarding his club selection which was purposely misleading and was obviously intended to be overheard by B, who had a similar shot. What is the ruling?

A. A was in breach of Rule 8-1 and lost the hole in match play or incurred a two-stroke penalty in stroke play.

[Ignorant]

Interestingly enough, during suspension of play you may also ask things you would be penalized for during a stipulated round:

8-1/20

Asking Advice When Play Suspended

Q. A is about to play the 6th hole, a par-3, when play is suspended by the Committee. Prior to the resumption of play, A asks X, who had already played the 6th, what club he used for his tee shot. Is A penalized under Rule 8-1 ?

A. No. The prohibition against giving or asking for advice applies only during a stipulated round. In this case, the stipulated round had been suspended.

[zipazoid]

What I have wondered about is, what if I freely offer up the information?

Let's say I hit first on a par-3 & after the shot I say, oooh I caught that 6-iron good. Did I violate a rule?

Anyway, I've seen how pros handle this. I've even seen Nicklaus do this - when a guy hits a shot, oftentimes he makes eye contact with the other guy in the group that hasn't hit yet & the first player will lift his club up so the other guy can see the number on the sole. All non-verbal.

And, of course, during telecasts the caddies 'communicate' to the Fehertys following the group what club the pro hit thru hand signals - one finger is 1 or 6 iron, 2 fingers is 2 or 7, and so on. All the other players have to do is watch the caddy.

That's why, ultimately, I think it's a dumb rule. There's many ways around it.

[Motley01]

Interesting.

I have a question also. Say after the tee shot on the par 3, my compeitor asks me what he did wrong on his swing, not the shot. Can I give advice on his swing on that particular shot?

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by zeg

This is true, but be aware of the following decision:

8-1/9

Misleading Statement About Club Selection

Q.A made a statement regarding his club selection which was purposely misleading and was obviously intended to be overheard by B, who had a similar shot. What is the ruling?

A.A was in breach of Rule 8-1 and lost the hole in match play or incurred a two-stroke penalty in stroke play.

Obviously, asking for or giving advice should be against the rules in stroke play because you have to keep it fair for all of the other players in the tournament that aren't in your group.  But why would either be against the rules in match play?  The guy is your only opponent, if you want to help him, who is it hurting besides you?  There is no field to protect.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

What I have wondered about is, what if I freely offer up the information?

Let's say I hit first on a par-3 & after the shot I say, oooh I caught that 6-iron good. Did I violate a rule?

It depends. If that was only a casual remark on enthusiasm you get no penalty. But if you wanted the others to know that you hit with 6-iron instead of any other club you get 2 penalties.

8-1/8

Comment About Club Selection After Stroke

Q. After playing a stroke, a player says: "I should have used a 5iron." Was the player in breach of Rule 8-1 ?

A. If the statement was made casually, there was no breach. If the statement was made to another player who had a shot to play from about the same position, there was a breach.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Motley01

Interesting.

I have a question also. Say after the tee shot on the par 3, my compeitor asks me what he did wrong on his swing, not the shot. Can I give advice on his swing on that particular shot?

Your fellow-competitor gets a 2 shot penalty for asking for an advice. If you give him that advice you will be penalized as well. See a similar example:

8-1/13

Player Giving Opponent or Fellow-Competitor Instruction During Round

Q. During a round a player tells an opponent or a fellow-competitor that he is overswinging. Is this giving advice in breach of Rule 8-1 ?

A. Yes.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Obviously, asking for or giving advice should be against the rules in stroke play because you have to keep it fair for all of the other players in the tournament that aren't in your group.  But why would either be against the rules in match play?  The guy is your only opponent, if you want to help him, who is it hurting besides you?  There is no field to protect.

You are partially right and in match play a player has the option of disregarding his opponent's breach. However, if the players in a match agree that they may ask and give advice freely during the match they will both be disqualified for breach of Rule 1-3 (agreement to waive a Rule).

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Obviously, asking for or giving advice should be against the rules in stroke play because you have to keep it fair for all of the other players in the tournament that aren't in your group.  But why would either be against the rules in match play?  The guy is your only opponent, if you want to help him, who is it hurting besides you?  There is no field to protect.

In addition to what Ignorant said, note that 8-1/17 is referring to a misleading statement intended to be overheard by your opponent. That decision isn't dealing with help, it's dealing with deception.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Anyway, I've seen how pros handle this. I've even seen Nicklaus do this - when a guy hits a shot, oftentimes he makes eye contact with the other guy in the group that hasn't hit yet & the first player will lift his club up so the other guy can see the number on the sole. All non-verbal.

And, of course, during telecasts the caddies 'communicate' to the Fehertys following the group what club the pro hit thru hand signals - one finger is 1 or 6 iron, 2 fingers is 2 or 7, and so on. All the other players have to do is watch the caddy.

That's why, ultimately, I think it's a dumb rule. There's many ways around it.

What you are describing there is clearly against the Rules and taking into account the pro players' integrity I am more than astonished if it is true.

But remember, it is perfecty allowed to look at the other players club or bag if this takes place with no physical act, i.e. you are not allowed to touch any of the other player's equipment. However, making an eye contact with a F-C and deliberately showing him the club leaves no doubt, it is a breach of R8-1.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

What you are describing there is clearly against the Rules and taking into account the pro players' integrity I am more than astonished if it is true.

I've seen it. Often. Even saw Jack do it once.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Obviously, asking for or giving advice should be against the rules in stroke play because you have to keep it fair for all of the other players in the tournament that aren't in your group.  But why would either be against the rules in match play?  The guy is your only opponent, if you want to help him, who is it hurting besides you?  There is no field to protect.

At first blush it might seem reasonable, but if you followed the logic that what's the difference, I'm not hurting the field, then where would you draw the line?  You could use the same logic with about any rule.  Then you are no longer playing by the rules of golf.  Then you'd have opponents basically playing matches by their own rules.  Then if you have a dispute and file a claim against your opponent, how does the committee decide if players weren't following the rules.  Gets ugly.

Plus if both players are agreeing to break the rules, they are in Breach of 1-3 Agreement to Waive Rules.  I wouldn't want to apply that rule only to stroke play.

FYI,  in your example in match play you immediately lost the hole as soon as you gave advice. If your opponent asked for advice first, he lost the hole as soon as he asked.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

At first blush it might seem reasonable, but if you followed the logic that what's the difference, I'm not hurting the field, then where would you draw the line?  You could use the same logic with about any rule.  Then you are no longer playing by the rules of golf.  Then you'd have opponents basically playing matches by their own rules.  Then if you have a dispute and file a claim against your opponent, how does the committee decide if players weren't following the rules.  Gets ugly.

Yes, that would create a mess if they were allowed to play the whole match by their own rules.  But I am only talking about this one rule.  And I'm not suggesting that they should be allowed to ignore the rule, but rather that it shouldn't be a rule at all.  Seems to me like it would fall in the same category as gimme putts.

[rustyredcab]

You may give advise to your partner, right?

On our buddy trips, we played an all-week-individual low net game, a cart-against-cart game, and a 4-some-against-all other 4-somes game each round. All games at the same time. So, everyone you were playing with was your competitor and your partner at the same time. Advise was asked for and given. The 4-some matches mattered.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

You may give advise to your partner, right?

On our buddy trips, we played an all-week-individual low net game, a cart-against-cart game, and a 4-some-against-all other 4-somes game each round. All games at the same time. So, everyone you were playing with was your competitor and your partner at the same time. Advise was asked for and given. The 4-some matches mattered.

No you can't. Not when they are your opponent as well.

BUT>>>>>>>

No one is going to care if you give advice to others players in a social competition like yours, though.

It's probably one of the most frequently broken rules, even in competition play, but perhaps the one to worry about the least.

If you are giving 6 inch putts in these matches, that is more of a transgression, so I wouldn't be worying about it.