Are most amateur golfers being mislead on how to swing?

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by iacas

We can't "play around" with them. They're physical realities, and they affect the way people give golf instruction.

A golfer comes pull-slicing the ball.

Old Ball Flight Laws Instruction: close the clubface more, rotate it through impact, etc.

New (Correct) Ball Flight Laws Instruction: get the path going more to the right.

The golf ball does not "start towards the ground," no, absolutely not.

As Mike and others said, this is not an opinion.

So to answer the question, it's now clear to me that all of your amateurs are misled on how to make the ball curve (or get the ball in the air, if you think it bounces off the ground), which in this day and age is fairly sad. The information is out there, for free, and takes minutes to understand.

I say A, you change it to B and then say A is correct. I'm sorry but balls have a thing called compression and they do reflect off the ground. Also, only an idiot would direct someone to close the face on a pull slice.

For me there is only one correct swing path, in to out. No matter how you swing, initially the club starts back towards the ball from the inside, some/many golfers manage to get outside this line just before impact, which creates the error path, out to in. In to in is just too exact and almost impossible to do. The natural swing is out to in.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I say A, you change it to B and then say A is correct. I'm sorry but balls have a thing called compression and they do reflect off the ground. Also, only an idiot would direct someone to close the face on a pull slice.

The faith is strong with this one...

No pinching, de flecting, bouncing or being picked up by fairies my friend.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I say A, you change it to B and then say A is correct. I'm sorry but balls have a thing called compression and they do reflect off the ground.

No, golf balls do not reflect off the ground, and it's not an opinion. It's a physical reality.

And nobody's "changed" things on you. You think the ball's initial direction is determined primarily by the path. That's wrong. It's primarily determined by the clubface. It too is not an opinion and is, in fact, a physical reality.

[Phil McGleno]

Please for the love of Pete let this thread go on for awhile I have not been this amused so early in the morning since the last time I tried to take a leak!

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by iacas

The scientists have already figured it out. Your "faith" is wrong, just as people who think the earth is flat are wrong.

A ball will not start to the right if the clubface is closed an appreciable amount. A clubface closed two degrees will start LEFT of the target even if the path is four degrees right, and then hook from there, missing the target badly.

Your feel isn't real, but the problem is that as an instructor, you're passing on bad and unreliable feels to your students, and inhibiting their ability to self-diagnose problems. If they're straight hooking the ball one day, your advice might be to swing more to the right (for a righty), which would be terrible advice.

These are the physical realities of the world in which we live.

I defy any golfer to see a 2°open clubface and a 4° in to out path through impact. What they can see though is a ball flying off to the right and curving gently back to the middle. I'm glad you are instructing your students to do something they can't even see. It kind of proves my point. You stick to science and I'll stick to logic.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

You stick to science and I'll stick to logic.

Funniest thing I've seen in a LONG time!

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Funniest thing I've seen in a LONG time!

Yeah, how do you even respond to that? I guess by not responding to it.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

The faith is strong with this one...

No pinching, deflecting, bouncing or being picked up by fairies my friend.

Great video, but not one of these balls was hit with anything but a horizontal path + or - 2° through impact. The putt did however deflect a little. Get back to the drawing board.

[Mr. Desmond]

This thread is the gift that keeps on giving...

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by iacas

Yeah, how do you even respond to that? I guess by not responding to it.

Your doing your A B thing again. Make a comment on the fact that you are giving your students information on things they cannot see, so in the same breath they cannot control. You tell them, "2°open clubface and a 4° in to out path through impact will start the ball left"

I repeat, they can't see this so they can't really see if they are doing it or not. How are you helping them with this knowledge?

Bloomin' scientists with their high speed cameras, they think they are so clever.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Get back to the drawing board.

Oh, C'mon, it is you that need to eat a bunch of humble pie, and eat it often.  Science is usually associated with logic, but apparently you've haven't arrived at that generally accepted association ... yet. Grasp reality instead of clinging dearly to disproven beliefs. You look like a fool.

Sincerely.

[newtogolf]

You're proving the point on why new golfers get frustrated with instructors.  Here you are presented with fact but because it goes against your old outdated beliefs you're refuting it.  You have a responsibility to your students to stay in touch with technology and new developments.  You should be grateful that Erik and Mike are trying to educate you on something you don't know but instead you continue to argue.  Do some research on the new ball flight laws that are current using Track-man and high speed cameras if you don't want to take their word for it, but to do nothing is a disservice to yourself and your students that are paying you to know better.

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Your doing your A B thing again. Make a comment on the fact that you are giving your students information on things they cannot see, so in the same breath they cannot control. You tell them, "2°open clubface and a 4° in to out path through impact will start the ball left"

I repeat, they can't see this so they can't really see if they are doing it or not. How are you helping them with this knowledge?

Bloomin' scientists with their high speed cameras, they think they are so clever.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

Oh, C'mon, it is you that need to eat a bunch of humble pie, and eat it often.  Science is usually associated with logic, but apparently you've haven't arrived at that generally accepted association ... yet. Grasp reality instead of clinging dearly to disproven beliefs. You look like a fool.

Sincerely.

I do believe there are people in the world who could be described as logical without having opened a science book. How does seeing what happens in super slow motion with a camera help when you can't see those conditions as you are swinging. I now know that a bee has two sets of wings and it flaps them at amazing speeds but I will never be able to help the bee with this exercise by explaining what I saw.

Does understanding what happens in ridiculous levels of slow motion mean you can translate this into instructions which could help the golfer improve at what he is trying to do.

In this case, no. Its just basic logic.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

You're proving the point on why new golfers get frustrated with instructors.  Here you are presented with fact but because it goes against your old outdated beliefs you're refuting it.  You have a responsibility to your students to stay in touch with technology and new developments.  You should be grateful that Erik and Mike are trying to educate you on something you don't know but instead you continue to argue.  Do some research on the new ball flight laws that are current using Track-man and high speed cameras if you don't want to take their word for it, but to do nothing is a disservice to yourself and your students that are paying you to know better.

I apologise for repeating myself. No one can see these conditions when they are swinging but they can see the what happens to the ball in flight. Why should I instruct my student to hit a ball with a 2° open club face when I have yet to come across a student who can actually do this or even see it. Its just madness and you know it. Or maybe you can see the squareness of your club face at impact, on the course. Go on surprise me!

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I do believe there are people in the world who could be described as logical without having opened a science book. How does seeing what happens in super slow motion with a camera help when you can't see those conditions as you are swinging. I now know that a bee has two sets of wings and it flaps them at amazing speeds but I will never be able to help the bee with this exercise by explaining what I saw.

Does understanding what happens in ridiculous levels of slow motion mean you can translate this into instructions which could help the golfer improve at what he is trying to do.

In this case, no. Its just basic logic.

Your argument is sooo wrong on so many levels.

It's not worth the time.

You are blind and illogical.

Too bad.

Sincerely.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

You look like a fool.

Sincerely.

I must be getting immune to the rudeness on this site. I didn't even notice this finishing innuendo the first time around.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

Your argument is sooo wrong on so many levels.

It's not worth the time.

You are blind and illogical.

Too bad.

Sincerely.

As you and iacas have not directly replied to my reason for not using super slow motion findings...

Then I guess that you also agree that we can't see these conditions on the course, so we can't have control of how many degrees our club face is open or closed at impact. Its all down to feel I'm afraid. But I knew that all along.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

No one can see these conditions when they are swinging

But it goes way beyond that.  You are right, that you can't "see" a clubface path when you are swinging, but knowing that catching the ball on the out-to-in back path allows you to do things like tee the ball forward to limit your misses right (which I do) or tee it in the middle with the driver to basically insure you won't slice (which I also do).  Knowing the proper ball flight laws lets you adjust the setup to give yourself the best chance of hitting a good shot.

Also, it allows instructors to diagnose your faults much more easily.  If you are slicing, you can work all day on that "open club face", but its not going to fix anything, because it isn't the cause.

There are innumerable things in innumerable sports you can't "see" (proper pronation in a wrist during a tennis serve, for example), but thats a silly excuse for not trying to understand what is going on so you can do better.  Are you suggesting that if we can't "see" it, its silly to analyze it sceintifically? (that is how it is coming across).