Should Rule 4.4 (Maximum of 14 clubs) be altered?

[Tomboys]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Could be but many ladies have very slow swings speeds but the manufacturers fill up their bags. Just a thought.

Well, children grow and become stronger, so their physical attributes change fairly quickly.  As such, their equipment can be rendered ill-fitting within a couple of years.

Edit: Booya--just saw your post and yes, more than swing speed, equipment obsolescence due to the physical changes of the user.

[Mr. Desmond]

One thing I will say for this OP Spam-a-lot -- he knows how to start a shit-storm...

[newtogolf]

I'm not sure if something is lost in translation or if there's some end game to all his posting.  The idea of using less than 14 clubs isn't new, in fact many posters on here suggest it as a theme for a club tournament or fun round with friends.  Why he'd suggest it as a rule change or waste the time to specify club limits based on handicap is beyond me.  Most beginners are lucky to make a full swing with a club and have minimal distance control between their clubs.  The fact that he believes it's a good idea to limit club selection and force them to alter their backswing to acquire different distances will likely ensure they quit the game very soon after starting.

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

One thing I will say for this OP Spam-a-lot -- he knows how to start a shit-storm...

[JBird]

I recently scored a 1 over par with just a putter at the local putt putt golf course.  If not for the damn windmill on 17 I would have been even par.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

The fact that he believes it's a good idea to limit club selection and force them to alter their back swing to acquire different distances will likely ensure they quit the game very soon after starting.

I don't force anyone to alter their back swing and I don't force anyone to carry less than 14 clubs. I suggest they try it and some do. I know I have a stronger influence on total beginners but I practice what I preach.

Why would carrying less clubs cause people to give up the game?

It's not been my experience. It's their decision and they can always go back to 14 instead of giving up. It's normal people I working with not spoiled infants, they do have a brain.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by JBird

I recently scored a 1 over par with just a putter at the local putt putt golf course.  If not for the damn windmill on 17 I would have been even par.

Now that's funny!

[newtogolf]

Go back and re-read your own post where you propose to change the Rule 4.4 in the Rules of Golf.  Where you wrote...

I would change the rule for amateurs. I am not a lover of the handicap system but I know its there and its probably there to stay. It does however make this new rule easier to apply. It goes like this...

Class (1) Handicap 4.4 or lower may use up to 9 clubs.

Class (2) Handicap 4.5 to 11.4 may use up to 8 clubs.

Class (3) Handicap 11.5 to 18.4 may use up to 7 clubs.

Class (4) Handicap 18.5 to 25.4 may use up to 6 clubs.

Class (5) Handicap 25.5 or higher may use up to 5 clubs.

And if they don't shorten their backswing how to you instruct them to hit the ball 50 yards if their PW is their shortest club?

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I don't force anyone to alter their back swing and I don't force anyone to carry less than 14 clubs. I suggest they try it and some do. I know I have a stronger influence on total beginners but I practice what I preach.

Why would carrying less clubs cause people to give up the game?

It's not been my experience. It's their decision and they can always go back to 14 instead of giving up. It's normal people I working with not spoiled infants, they do have a brain.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Go back and re-read your own post where you propose to change the Rule 4.4 in the Rules of Golf.  Where you wrote...

And if they don't shorten their backswing how to you instruct them to hit the ball 50 yards if their PW is their shortest club?

Of course they would have to shorten their back swings or slow down their down swings but I was only saying, i don't force them to do anything. By the way, I am not proposing to change the rule, I am only opening the discussion, "Should the rule be altered?"

[Fourputt]

I am not in favor of changing the rule, and certainly not in the fashion proposed by the OP.  The Rules of Golf have always applied equally to all players, regardless of playing level, and I don't see any reason for changing that policy.

That said, I don't see anything wrong with instructors or club competition committees instituting such a condition in the interest of improving a players shot feel.  I've played 3 club and 4 club tournaments, and thoroughly enjoy them.  I also will occasionally play with anywhere from 7 to 9 clubs just for kicks.  It is a great way to develop feel and just learn more about the physics of golf ball trajectory.  It will reap benefits beyond just having fun and challenging yourself to something new.  Today I hit a 5 iron approach on successive holes.

The first one was 140 yards, and the second was 175 (which is my normal 5I distance).  On the first hole, I had to hit under the branches of a tree just 10 years in front of me.  Only 2 clubs in my bag would do that dependably, driver and punched 5I.  For this shot, playing the 5I well back off my right foot made the most sense, and I guess I was right, because I hit a near perfect shot which ended up on the fringe, pin high, 15 feet from the hole.

On the next hole, I was in a position where I needed to under the branches of one tree, then over the next one.  I played the 5I again, not quite as far back and again made a very nice shot, although it was about 8 feet right of the green, but with an easy chip to get up and down for par.  I love playing these shots, but I wouldn't know just what to do if I hadn't made a point of practicing them on the course, rather than just on the range.  Those shots were a large part my holding on to shoot a 79 today for my first 18 hole round of the season.

The pros usually know exactly what the trajectory is of each club in their bags, and how to modify it as needed.  I can't claim any such expertise, but I do better with it than most of the guys I know.

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Of course they would have to shorten their back swings or slow down their down swings but I was only saying, i don't force them to do anything. By the way, I am not proposing to change the rule, I am only opening the discussion, "Should the rule be altered?"

Ok... quick question then... are you in favor of changing the rules to the guidelines that you originally posted?

If yes, then those rules would force amatures to do exactly what newtogolf was talking about.  To you honestly feel like that would be a good idea for the game?

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

Ok... quick question then... are you in favor of changing the rules to the guidelines that you originally posted?

If yes, then those rules would force amatures to do exactly what newtogolf was talking about.  To you honestly feel like that would be a good idea for the game?

I would not take it on me to force any changes to any of the 34 rules. I am of the opinion that most amateurs would benefit from having less clubs in their bag and I used the rules angle to suggest how many clubs the different skill levels should try to master before moving on. I devote enough time to my practice where I know 7 clubs inside out. E.g. I will hit an easy 7i more accurately that a full 8i. When it comes to the less lofted irons, I devote even less time to practice and go for a more forgiving hybrid with 26°. I play easy golf, not macho golf.

Why would having a lighter bag make people give up the game. I always carry my bag and with only 7 clubs, its more of a pleasure.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I am not in favor of changing the rule, and certainly not in the fashion proposed by the OP.  The Rules of Golf have always applied equally to all players, regardless of playing level, and I don't see any reason for changing that policy.

That said, I don't see anything wrong with instructors or club competition committees instituting such a condition in the interest of improving a players shot feel.  I've played 3 club and 4 club tournaments, and thoroughly enjoy them.  I also will occasionally play with anywhere from 7 to 9 clubs just for kicks.  It is a great way to develop feel and just learn more about the physics of golf ball trajectory.  It will reap benefits beyond just having fun and challenging yourself to something new.  Today I hit a 5 iron approach on successive holes.

The first one was 140 yards, and the second was 175 (which is my normal 5I distance).  On the first hole, I had to hit under the branches of a tree just 10 years in front of me.  Only 2 clubs in my bag would do that dependably, driver and punched 5I.  For this shot, playing the 5I well back off my right foot made the most sense, and I guess I was right, because I hit a near perfect shot which ended up on the fringe, pin high, 15 feet from the hole.

On the next hole, I was in a position where I needed to under the branches of one tree, then over the next one.  I played the 5I again, not quite as far back and again made a very nice shot, although it was about 8 feet right of the green, but with an easy chip to get up and down for par.  I love playing these shots, but I wouldn't know just what to do if I hadn't made a point of practicing them on the course, rather than just on the range.  Those shots were a large part my holding on to shoot a 79 today for my first 18 hole round of the season.

The pros usually know exactly what the trajectory is of each club in their bags, and how to modify it as needed.  I can't claim any such expertise, but I do better with it than most of the guys I know.

Many posters have mentioned that they enjoy playing with a reduced set but am I the only one who plays better?

[boogielicious]

this thread belongs in the Rules section of the forum.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Many posters have mentioned that they enjoy playing with a reduced set but am I the only one who plays better?

I feel that I play better overall as a result of sometimes playing with fewer than 14 clubs, but not necessarily while I'm playing with a short bag.  I still prefer having all of my options open to me when playing a normal round.

Originally Posted by boogielicious

this thread belongs in the Rules section of the forum.

Not really.  The discussion has gone well beyond just the OP's suggested rule change.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by boogielicious

this thread belongs in the Rules section of the forum.

Not really as it is really a discussion about carrying less in our bags than actually changing the rules.

[Patrick57]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I feel that I play better overall as a result of sometimes playing with fewer than 14 clubs, but not necessarily while I'm playing with a short bag.  I still prefer having all of my options open to me when playing a normal round.

I have tried many changes to my equipment during my career. Belly putter, 43" - 47" shaft for my driver, 2 thumb putter with a 30" shaft, 4 wedges etc etc. I also consider myself to have given all of these equipment options a fair chance. For example if i do take on a new project or piece of equipment I will persevere with it for an entire season - a relatively short time in comparison with the 40 odd years I have been playing the game. I am now in my 3rd season playing with only 7 clubs in the bag and do you know what? I don't feel I am short of options. I challenge any golfer to try this for a season, I'm pretty sure he will feel the same.

[Gresh24]

I'm sure any scratch golfer could still be very good with half the amount of clubs.  I don't see the point at all.

[zeg]

I don't buy your basic premise. A rules change is a silly suggestion, but as others have said, it can be helpful to go out with fewer clubs to work on other aspects of your game. However, unless someone has extraordinarily poor course management skills, it will take very significant statistical evidence to convince me that reducing the number of clubs actually improves their score during that round. Anecdotes just don't begin to cut it.

The reasons for this are simple.

1. Having 14 clubs doesn't require that you use 14 clubs. You can play a 7-club round by ignoring the other 7 if you want.
2. You may pull the wrong club in some cases, but if the right club was an 8 but you only have a 9, you have no choice but to pull the wrong club.
3. Your stock swing is always going to be more reliable than a touch swing, taking some off or putting on a little something extra.

You seem to be confusing the long-term benefit of practicing specialty shots (so that they're available when you need them) with the almost certain penalty for forcing yourself to use them on a large fraction of your strokes. Being able to punch a 5 iron to a 9 iron distance when you need to get out from under some trees is important, but needing to use that shot when you've got a clear look at the green just increases the odds that you miss.