The 2012 Masters Discussion Thread

[MichaelCole]

I think the only thing that you really can know for sure about The Masters is that the winner is never certain. It could be anyone! Augusta seems to raise the game of the dark horses and bring the best to their knees at times. I think that Rory is coming out with something to prove this year and that makes him a definite contender. But Tiger? Is one victory really enough to warrant this sudden deluge of worshipers again? I don't think it will be him, especially with his issues with the driver. But we will see what happens. I'm just glad its Masters week again. There is nothing like it in all of golf.

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by mvmac

The blooming azaleas might not be a part of this year's Masters because of a mild winter, those pink and white flowers might be gone before the tournament starts this year. Michael Buteau from Bloomberg News has the details:

Well there goes that colorful masters tradition since 1966.

[Zwick]

I can understand the doubts in his return to form (somewhat), but the driver is most definitely no issue this year. Distance control could hurt him if he isn't dialed in with the short irons/wedges.

Originally Posted by MichaelCole

But Tiger? Is one victory really enough to warrant this sudden deluge of worshipers again? I don't think it will be him, especially with his issues with the driver.

(+ this thread is 4 years old)

[Motley01]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

Well there goes that colorful masters tradition since 1966.

What? No way, we cannot watch the Masters without seeing all the Azaleas and other colorful flowers! NO NO NO, I hope they can save them from blooming by adding ice around them.

[chris_284]

Despite how good Rory is playing right now, the favorite has to be Tiger.

Tiger willed himself to T4's finishes the last 2 years when he had the game equivalent of Charles Barkley. He's contended in 7 of the last 7 Masters, despite some terrible (relative to Tiger standards) golf since the US Open at Torrey Pines

So, he can will himself into a top 5 with absolutely no game. What do you think he can do with with some great game. Driving not seen since 2000 (maybe ever), precise iron shots, all 9 trajectories, and some great putting (especially on the fast greens at API Sunday which will be like Augusta). He's now moved from top 4-5 into 1 going into Sunday/the back nine Sunday. With his will and his new found game, that's enough to make him the favorite right now.

While Rory is playing amazing for not only his age, but anyone at any age, he's been doing it in the wake of Tiger's 3 year downfall. Tiger has simply not been around. I could sit here and make a case as to why Rory should be the favorite to crush the field. And he likely is... minus one person.

You know Tiger is going to be there on the back nine Sunday. If Rory is to win, it's no longer the regular faces of the field he's been accustomed to seeing that he'll have to beat. It's Tiger Woods. A Tiger Woods he's never even seen yet. A Tiger Woods who's been on another 10 Major winless streak like back in 03-04.

I could make a case for either guy winning this week. If Tiger isn't there Sunday, I think Rory is absolutely the favorite. But if Tiger is there... there is no way Rory can compete.

Here is where I may differ from some. If it came down to a Sunday, final group pairing of Tiger vs Rory... I would set the point spread at a 6.5 shot difference for Tiger.

Playing with Tiger on a Sunday final pairing when he's ON is a whole 'nother ball game. The API was great on Sunday. Despite that Graeme was KILLING GIR's up until Sunday, he didn't bring a great iron game. The full swing shots that he needed to hit weren't there. The full swing that requires such great fine tune movement/timing/tempo. When the nerves creep in a bit, that's the first to go. The full swing. G-Mac had beaten Tiger before, but the nerves were still there. He had to make putts of 53, 45, and 23 to even stay within a respectable 5 strokes of Tiger at tournaments end. When nerves creep in, the full swing is the first to go. His iron play just wasn't accurate Sunday.

If it comes down to Rory and Tiger Sunday, Rory's full swing won't hold up. Look at the Honda. Tiger was 9 strokes back, and sitll never really in it even after posting a 62. And Rory's full swing got rattled. On ~15, he pushed a terrible 140 yard iron shot way long and right into deep rough. He also ended up in 2 bunkers on approach shots coming in, and hit 4 iron off the tee on 18. Like Harvey Penick would say... bunkers are no longer a hazard in golf. Pro's even aim at them during fast and tough greens conditions because they know they have a better chance getting up and down from them sometimes. They are so finely manicured and well kept now. Penick's words, not mine. While hearing the roars, Rory hit 3/4 terrible approach shots coming down the stretch. While his short game and putting may stay with him Sunday at Augusta if he plays with Tiger, the full swing will be gone. And when you miss at Augusta by 2-3 yards you're dead in the water. Rory has done everything he's done in a near Tiger-less golf world. If he had to go face to face with him in a showdown... there is no way the results would be pretty.

Just like guys need to get there and lose before they win (or win again for a long time). Rory NEEDED to lose last year on Sunday, to win the US Open. Kyle Stanley needed to learn to lose this year, to go out and win the next week. David Toms needed to lose last year's players to come out and win again the following week. Tiger needed to lose the Abu Dhabi (and you could argue ATT pebble) to the Win the API this year.

Tiger's will puts him already into the top 5  as evidenced in the past 2 years. His new found game puts him into first going into Sunday (possibly by more than just 1 stroke). And his confidence coming off a win are the floodgates opening. The confidence propels him to go 39/41 for wins when holding the 54 hole lead.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by k-troop

I think people are vastly overstating Tiger's chances this week.  Remember, he's only played one event since he withdrew with an injury.  And the week leading to that event (which he did win) he nearly snapped his spine when he was spooked by a butterfly or bee or something.

I'll stand by my prediction--Rory has five top-5s in 5 starts this year, including a win and a 2nd.  He clearly demonstrated that he could play Augusta last year.  I think the last 12 months have taught him a lot about finishing a tournament, and he has a score to settle.  Of course Tiger is playing well, but he might not finish the event, or his putter could go cold.  Phil could shoot -16 or +16--that's just Phil.  Rory is clearly the most consistent of the current Big-3, and he's in top form.  That makes him the clear odds favorite IMO.

Speaking of overstating things...you do this a lot.

He played like 8 consecutive rounds after said injury.  Or was it 7 rounds in 8 days?

Anyway, Rory has 5 top 5s and a win, blah blah blah...and how many of them did he win by anywhere close to 6 strokes?  Now, you say Rory is "clearly" the most consistent of the current big three, but I'd be interested in seeing how far off Tiger is in 5 starts (if he has that many) that don't include the WD.

Brandon

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by brocks

I don't know where those odds came from, but Mahan is 28-1 in Vegas, and 25-1 at Ladbrokes.

Some of the prop bets are interesting. You have to bet 8 to win 1 on Tiger being in the top ten. But he's 10-1 to either MC or WD, and it's 16-1 that he and Rory will be in the final group on Sunday.

If I had the money, I would definitely lay big $$$ on Tiger and Rory having top 10 finishes.

Multiple posters now have essentially suggested that people think Tiger is "back" because of one victory.  Again, you guys are either feeding into the ESPNTMZ journalism or haven't been paying attention this year.  The "whispers" were around before he won 2 weekends ago.  Dismiss the statistics if you will, but it doesn't mean others are blindly believing based on one win.

Brandon

[newtogolf]

They were before Hunters win yesterday, you're right the new odds are;

Tiger Woods	4/1
Rory McIlroy	5/1
Phil Mickelson	11/1
Luke Donald	16/1
Lee Westwood	16/1
Hunter Mahan	28/1
Justin Rose	33/1
Adam Scott	33/1
Keegan Bradley	33/1
Charl Schwartzel	33/1
Jason Day	40/1
Steve Stricker	40/1
Bubba Watson	40/1
Dustin Johnson	40/1
Nick Watney	40/1
Sergio Garcia	50/1
Webb Simpson	50/1
Martin Kaymer	50/1
Graeme McDowell	66/1
Matt Kuchar	66/1
K.J. Choi	66/1
Geoff Ogilvy	66/1
Padraig Harrington	80/1
Rickie Fowler	80/1
Jim Furyk	80/1
Angel Cabrera	80/1
Bill Haas	80/1
Brandt Snedeker	80/1
Louis Oosthuizen	80/1
Bo Van Pelt	80/1
Ian Poulter	80/1
Kyle Stanley	80/1
Gary Woodland	100/1
Trevor Immelman	100/1
Zach Johnson	100/1
Paul Casey	100/1
Aaron Baddeley	125/1
Alvaro Quiros	125/1
Martin Laird	125/1
Sean O'Hair	125/1
Fred Couples	125/1
Jason Dufner	125/1
Y-E Yang	125/1
Robert Karlsson	125/1
Thomas Bjorn	125/1
Johnson Wagner	125/1
Francesco Molinari	125/1
Henrik Stenson	125/1
Ryo Ishikawa	125/1
Vijay Singh	150/1
Peter Hanson	150/1
David Toms	150/1
John Senden	150/1
Sang-Moon Bae	150/1
Charles Howell III	150/1
Fredrik Jacobson	150/1
Ben Crane	150/1
Ryan Palmer	150/1
Jonathan Byrd	175/1
Mark Wilson	175/1
Ross Fisher	200/1
Miguel Angel Jimenez	200/1
Kevin Na	200/1
Simon Dyson	200/1
Paul Lawrie	200/1
Lucas Glover	200/1
Kyung-Tae Kim	200/1
Robert Garrigus	200/1
Edoardo Molinari	200/1
Rory Sabbatini	300/1
Stewart Cink	300/1
Jose Maria Olazabal	300/1
Darren Clarke	300/1
Anders Hansen	300/1
Tim Clark	300/1
Tom Watson	400/1
Patrick Cantlay	400/1
Gonzalo Fernandez	400/1
Harrison Frazar	400/1
Chez Reavie	400/1
Scott Verplank	400/1
Brendan Steele	400/1
Bernhard Langer	400/1
Mike Weir	500/1
Hideki Matsuyama	500/1
Kevin Chappell	500/1
Scott Stallings	500/1
Mark O'Meara	750/1
Kelly Kraft	1000/1
Bryden Macpherson	1000/1
Larry Mize	1500/1
Ben Crenshaw	5000/1
Craig Stadler	5000/1
Ian Woosnam	2500/1
Sandy Lyle	2500/1
Randal Lewis	2500/1
Corbin Mills	1500/ 1

Originally Posted by brocks

I don't know where those odds came from, but Mahan is 28-1 in Vegas, and 25-1 at Ladbrokes.

Some of the prop bets are interesting. You have to bet 8 to win 1 on Tiger being in the top ten. But he's 10-1 to either MC or WD, and it's 16-1 that he and Rory will be in the final group on Sunday.

[brocks]

Multiple posters now have essentially suggested that people think Tiger is "back" because of one victory.  Again, you guys are either feeding into the ESPNTMZ journalism or haven't been paying attention this year.  The "whispers" were around before he won 2 weekends ago.  Dismiss the statistics if you will, but it doesn't mean others are blindly believing based on one win.

And besides that, saying he's back doesn't mean he'll win everything. He didn't win the Masters in 2000. But I do think he'll be the de facto best player in the world by mid-summer, and the official #1 by Christmas.

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Speaking of overstating things...you do this a lot.

He played like 8 consecutive rounds after said injury.  Or was it 7 rounds in 8 days?

Anyway, Rory has 5 top 5s and a win, blah blah blah...and how many of them did he win by anywhere close to 6 strokes?  Now, you say Rory is "clearly" the most consistent of the current big three, but I'd be interested in seeing how far off Tiger is in 5 starts (if he has that many) that don't include the WD.

Brandon

Yeah, and he played a few events this year leading up to Doral, but he limped off the 12th tee to his cart just the same.  You can't just "don't include the WD", because that's the whole point:  he could not finish the Masters, and it shouldn't be much of a surprise to anyone.

And yes, "snapped his spine" was an exaggeration.  Just for clarification for those who miss the obvious:  I wasn't trying to convince anyone that Tiger actually snapped his spine, that was an exaggeration made for effect, and to help illustrate a point.

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Anyway, Rory has 5 top 5s and a win, blah blah blah...and how many of them did he win by anywhere close to 6 strokes?  Now, you say Rory is "clearly" the most consistent of the current big three, but I'd be interested in seeing how far off Tiger is in 5 starts (if he has that many) that don't include the WD.

Brandon

Rory's 2012:

2 at Abu Dhabi.

5 at Emirates.

2 at World Match Play.

1 at Honda.

3 at Doral.

Tiger's 2012:

T3 at Emirates.

T15 at Pebble.

T17 at World Match Play.

T2 at Honda.

WD at Doral.

WIN at Bay Hill.

I'm sure somewhere in those results is a reason why Tiger has had a better year so far than Rory.  Maybe Emirates is the only one that really counts.

(And to the Mods:  I tried to add this to my last post, but the Edit was unavailable.)

[iacas]

Originally Posted by k-troop

(And to the Mods:  I tried to add this to my last post, but the Edit was unavailable.)

You get 18 minutes.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by k-troop

Rory's 2012:

2 at Abu Dhabi.

5 at Emirates.

2 at World Match Play.

1 at Honda.

3 at Doral.

Tiger's 2012:

T3 at Emirates.

T15 at Pebble.

T17 at World Match Play.

T2 at Honda.

WD at Doral.

WIN at Bay Hill.

I'm sure somewhere in those results is a reason why Tiger has had a better year so far than Rory.  Maybe Emirates is the only one that really counts.

(And to the Mods:  I tried to add this to my last post, but the Edit was unavailable.)

You have serious reading comprehension issues.

You said: Rory is clearly the most consistent.

I say: I'd like to see 5 comparable finishes from Tiger that show how far Tiger has been off from that pace.

You say: I'm sure somewhere in these 5 there is an illustration that Tiger has had a better year.

That's a logical leap big enough to drive a Mack Truck through.

Brandon

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

You have serious reading comprehension issues.

You said: Rory is clearly the most consistent.

I say: I'd like to see 5 comparable finishes from Tiger that show how far Tiger has been off from that pace.

You say: I'm sure somewhere in these 5 there is an illustration that Tiger has had a better year.

That's a logical leap big enough to drive a Mack Truck through.

Brandon

Okay, I'll walk the dog for you.

1. "Consistently" finishing in the top-5 is "good."
2. Finishing in the top-5 5/5 times (Rory's 2012 season) is both "consistent" and "good" by any definition.

3. Finishing in the top-5 3/6 times (Tiger's 2012 season) may be both "consistent" and "good", depending on your definition, because golf is really hard.  But it is neither as "consistent" as 5/5, nor is it as "good."

Ergo, Rory is more "consistent" than Tiger, and also more "good".  Comparing 5/5 top-5s to 3/6 top-5s (with the others being a 15, 17, and WD), with 4 common events, produces a "clear" favorite in terms of both "consistent" and "good".

You're going to need one of them FedEx shrink ray thingys for your Mack truck, because I think that logic is pretty tight.  I gave you exactly what you asked for, and the 2012 numbers speak for themselves.  Maybe you were confused by the "somewhere in here is proof that Tiger had a better year" part.  That was not logic--that was sarcasm.

[xxsoultonesxx]

The golf channel is calling the 2012 Masters, a possible one up on the 1975 Masters with the stories/field coming to highlight the field.

Nicklaus/Weiskopf/Miller ~ McIlroy/Woods/Donald

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to work on Thursday/Friday with masters on TV...

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by saevel25

I think Tiger has a good shot as any to win the masters over the next 3-5 years. So i doubt this will be his best shot.

As for Rory and Tiger wins, Rory cares about majors, he said so. Though it wants to win every tourniment he is in, i think he would take 10 majors and only a handful of other wins, over 2-3 majors and 30+ other wins. I think Rory is going to have a great career, but i doubt anyone will have a run like Tiger. The one reason, Tiger was the first of his kind, and he hit the tour running. So he really caught everyone by suprise. Now that isn't going to happen, all these players are more athletic and better comming into the tour. So its hard to gauge. I mean if Rory wins half as many times as tiger did during his first 5 years, i think Rory probably has done something just as impressive, just because i think the quality of players now are better than when Tiger came out. These players are not intimidated by talent. Its like saying, well Boise State keeps winning all there games, yea they hade a good 5 year stretch, but who did they play. Same with Tiger, who was he playing againts, guys who were not like him, who were not into working out like he does, who didn't have the power like he does. Now there are many more people who hit it farther than him. Who are not intimidated by the presense of someone like tiger. Honestly its like Rory is playing in the SEC while tiger played in the WAC conference.

Amazing how lucky Tiger was.  The players were greater back in Jack's day, then Tiger won 14 majors against weak competition, and now the players are great again.  Just let Tiger get on a major roll again and the other players will all of a sudden get weak again.  What a lucky dog he is.

Some folks used to claim that Tiger would have to not just beat Jack's record, but win twice as many as Jack to really be considered to have equaled him.  Yet now, apparently Rory only has to win half as many as Tiger to be considered as equaling him.  Amazing.

I mean, Rory had to beat such luminaries as Jason Day, Kevin Chappelle, Robert Garrigus, Lee Westwood, Y.E. Yang and Peter Hanson in his US Open triumph - and Yang is even a former major winner!!  While Tiger only had to play slackers like Phil, Ernie, Vijay, Love, III, Greg, Freddie, etc. in his majors.

Also amazing that players weren't intimidated by him when he was playing crappy.  Let them get a taste of the full force Tiger, healthy and playing well, and then we'll see what kind of fortitude they have.

Originally Posted by xxsoultonesxx

The golf channel is calling the 2012 Masters, a possible one up on the 1975 Masters with the stories/field coming to highlight the field.

Nicklaus/Weiskopf/Miller ~ McIlroy/Woods/Donald

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to work on Thursday/Friday with masters on TV...

Actually they were saying the top 3 were Tiger, Rory, and Phil.  Due respect to the world's #1, but until you have won a major you are not in the top group, no matter what the world ranking points say.

[rossvanwyk]

Dammit I love the masters. You just never know who's gonna win this thing. I'm hoping my boy Charl can get it going again this year and be in a good spot come the weekend.

Always love watching Rory play. Such a pure striker and an incredible talent so I really hope it all falls in place come masters.

I'm a huge Phil fan as well. Just needs to make a few putts.

I must say the whole Tiger thing is so ridiculous. Unbelievable player. period. But so many people seem to have so many definitive things to say about it him. Some say he's not one of the greats cos he's not paying against Jack and the like. Some say he's the best ever. Then everything and anything anyone does these days has to immediately be compared to Tiger. I mean come on.

Rory's US open was amazing. Tiger said he loved watching him play. It was hella good golf. Can't we leave it at that? Immediately it's, oh, it's not as goodas Tiger's performance at Pebble. So tired of this trash.

Turtleback, I think you're being unfair. Jason Day is a great player and has proven so, being there and there abouts quite a few times. He had a great masters last year. Westwood? You're really going to be sarcastic and insult Westwood? He's a great player. Yang has beaten Tiger head to head. But I'm sure there's some reason for that somewhere. Couldn't have been a fair win...

Sad that Ernie didn't make the cut this year but still a few of my SA lads to cheer on. Hoping Charl and Louis can turn it on and swing it smooth.

Come on the Masters!!!

[Wansteadimp]

Okay here we go, this is where the money has gone: -

Woods at 5/1 & McIlroy at 6/1 - win only - I couldn't bear it if they won and I hadn't backed them

Rose at 33/1, Garcia at 60/1, Snedeker at 80/1 and Oosthuizen at 90/1 - all each-way - all have a reasonable record round Augusta and/or have shown some recent form

Sang-Moon Bae at 200/1 - each way - because he has contended too much this year not to back him at that price

Peter Hanson at 150/1 - each way - I like the odds and he is the sort of player that will end up in the top 5 having flown under everyone's radar all week - see last year's US Open

That only leaves a couple of people in the field that I haven't backed and I don't see Sandy or Larry recapturing past form!!!