Augusta May Have To Admit Its First Woman Member

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by mdl

There's been a lot of at least halfway defending of Augusta, or at least the PGA's 100% lying down about it.  I find that disappointing.  They PGA has taken events away from clubs that fell too far behind the times in their membership.  Yes, ANGC could probably still get most players to come anyway, at least in the near term, but if the PGA withdrew all accreditation, eliminated all points and (at least for the current TV deal) purse money, eliminated exemptions, eliminated every possible benefit any player could gain by playing the Master's except getting to say they won the Master's, it seems hard to believe that wouldn't affect the ANGC at least in the medium term.  Are their members going to financially back the tournament?  Is any major network going to broadcast it when that looks so much like endorsing sexism?  Are any major corporations going to agree to sponsor it?

It seems weak to just say, whatever, ANGC can do whatever they want, they're private.  Every PGA golfer and every golf fan essentially subsidizes the ANGC, both financially and in feeding their self-obsession and self-importance.  We have every right to not only personally disagree with their membership rules but also to try to push for the PGA to actually do something about it like they have at other backwards, behind the times clubs.

The FedEx Cup, and its "points", has only been in existence for what, 7 years?  I think the Masters had plenty of notoriety, and drew great players who really, really wanted to win the tournament well before that.  The corporate sponsors and CBS contract directly with the ANGC, not the PGA Tour, and the corporate sponsors and CBS are the source of the prize money.  The corporate sponsors and TV networks have always lined up, and will continue to line up, to heap piles of cash on ANGC for the privilege of being a part of the Masters.  They did this in the 80s when ANGC had no black members; they've done it for the last 60 years despite no female members.  Most surprisingly, they did it up until about 20 years ago when ANGC would only let them broadcast a grand total of FOUR HOURS of coverage for the entire event, and only show two commercials (or something) per hour.

The only link between the PGA Tour and the Masters is that the PGA Tour assigns FedEx Cup points to the event, gives a 2-year exemption on the Tour for winning the event, and counts the prize money towards Official Money.

[brocks]

The FedEx Cup, and its "points", has only been in existence for what, 7 years?  I think the Masters had plenty of notoriety, and drew great players who really, really wanted to win the tournament well before that.  The corporate sponsors and CBS contract directly with the ANGC, not the PGA Tour, and the corporate sponsors and CBS are the source of the prize money.  The corporate sponsors and TV networks have always lined up, and will continue to line up, to heap piles of cash on ANGC for the privilege of being a part of the Masters.  They did this in the 80s when ANGC had no black members; they've done it for the last 60 years despite no female members.  Most surprisingly, they did it up until about 20 years ago when ANGC would only let them broadcast a grand total of FOUR HOURS of coverage for the entire event, and only show two commercials (or something) per hour.  The only link between the PGA Tour and the Masters is that the PGA Tour assigns FedEx Cup points to the event, gives a 2-year exemption on the Tour for winning the event, and counts the prize money towards Official Money.

I agree with all that, except the tour gives a five-year exemption to major winners.

[newtogolf]

Why is it behind the times to have a private men's only club when there are women's only clubs as well.  Is Curves being persecuted for being women only?  It seems that anyone can have an exclusive club except men, especially if they happen to be mostly white men.  I don't get the outrage here, it's a private mens club, women can play there all they want they just (to our knowledge) can't be members which is better than I can say for Curves who don't allow men as members or guests.

Originally Posted by mdl

There's been a lot of at least halfway defending of Augusta, or at least the PGA's 100% lying down about it.  I find that disappointing.  They PGA has taken events away from clubs that fell too far behind the times in their membership.  Yes, ANGC could probably still get most players to come anyway, at least in the near term, but if the PGA withdrew all accreditation, eliminated all points and (at least for the current TV deal) purse money, eliminated exemptions, eliminated every possible benefit any player could gain by playing the Master's except getting to say they won the Master's, it seems hard to believe that wouldn't affect the ANGC at least in the medium term.  Are their members going to financially back the tournament?  Is any major network going to broadcast it when that looks so much like endorsing sexism?  Are any major corporations going to agree to sponsor it?

It seems weak to just say, whatever, ANGC can do whatever they want, they're private.  Every PGA golfer and every golf fan essentially subsidizes the ANGC, both financially and in feeding their self-obsession and self-importance.  We have every right to not only personally disagree with their membership rules but also to try to push for the PGA to actually do something about it like they have at other backwards, behind the times clubs.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Why is it behind the times to have a private men's only club when there are women's only clubs as well.  Is Curves being persecuted for being women only?  It seems that anyone can have an exclusive club except men, especially if they happen to be mostly white men.  I don't get the outrage here, it's a private mens club, women can play there all they want they just (to our knowledge) can't be members which is better than I can say for Curves who don't allow men as members or guests.

Female only gyms exist because women want to go to the gym and not be leered at by men and don't want uninvited attention. That is a good thing. Men are not being disadvantedged by the existence of places like Curves. That is not discrtimination.

That is not analagous to a men only golf club.

And, by the same token, the fact that Augusta is a men's club doesn't nmean that women can't paly golf somewhere else.

If I was afemale, I wouldn't want to be a member of Augusta because of what it stands for (or doesn't stand for).

[brocks]

Why is it behind the times to have a private men's only club when there are women's only clubs as well.  Is Curves being persecuted for being women only?  It seems that anyone can have an exclusive club except men, especially if they happen to be mostly white men.  I don't get the outrage here, it's a private mens club, women can play there all they want they just (to our knowledge) can't be members which is better than I can say for Curves who don't allow men as members or guests.

This is a general comment, not directed at you personally, since I don't even know what your opinion is about Tiger's conduct. But it seems that many of the same people who say that Tiger should be a role model, and held to a higher standard because he is the most famous golfer on the planet, are perfectly OK with the most famous golf club on the planet not being held to even average standards.

[Shindig]

Why is it behind the times to have a private men's only club when there are women's only clubs as well.  Is Curves being persecuted for being women only?  It seems that anyone can have an exclusive club except men, especially if they happen to be mostly white men.  I don't get the outrage here, it's a private mens club, women can play there all they want they just (to our knowledge) can't be members which is better than I can say for Curves who don't allow men as members or guests.

While I have no problem with Augusta's membership policies, it's worth noting that the policy Curves lays out is in response to a big failure of its competitors to make female-friendly gyms. Women often report feeling intimidated when they try to enter a weight room; while some of this may be in their imaginations (they think all the men will look down on them for being there), it's often a real thing: how often do you hear the (false) refrain that "those who can lift more should have priority" or "she should stop doing bench press and squats and get back to the cardio room/yoga class/kitchen"? I hear such statements about once a month, and this is at a university, where anyone saying these things can (and, I think, should) be subject to disciplinary action. I'd be very surprised if they're not at least as common at commercial gyms (where management risks alienating paying customers no matter what they do). Furthermore, Curves tend to be located in close proximity to gyms that allow male and female patrons (although these have the problems described in the previous paragraph), so it isn't as though a male has no gym option due to Curves' discriminatory policies.

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by Shorty

Female only gyms exist because women want to go to the gym and not be leered at by men and don't want uninvited attention. That is a good thing. Men are not being disadvantedged by the existence of places like Curves. That is not discrtimination.

That is not analagous to a men only golf club.

And, by the same token, the fact that Augusta is a men's club doesn't nmean that women can't paly golf somewhere else.

If I was afemale, I wouldn't want to be a member of Augusta because of what it stands for (or doesn't stand for).

Well, men-only golf clubs exist because men don't want to play behind groups of women, give up their Saturday morning prime-time tee times once a month to the club's WGA, and want to be able to talk about the cart girl's outfit in the grill room without having to look around.

And Women prefer women's only fitness clubs mostly because they think they look hideous working out--it's a self-conscious thing more than a getting hit-on thing (at least for most women).  Obviously I'm not a woman, but I used to know a gal who ran a Curves club, and I asked her because I was curious..  (But of course this is way OT.)

[burtonda]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

If there wasn't such a thing called "media", would anybody even know about this?

Brilliant.  Kim Jong Un, Bashar al-Assad, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and Omar al-Bashir would like to hear some more of your insight on the perils of a free press.

[burtonda]

Quote:

Well, men-only golf clubs exist because men don't want to play behind groups of women, give up their Saturday morning prime-time tee times once a month to the club's WGA, and want to be able to talk about the cart girl's outfit in the grill room without having to look around.

Sounds more like a spolied children's club than a men's club.  Pathetic.

[newtogolf]

Men could be disadvantaged if Curves is the closest gym to their house and now have to drive a greater distance to a gym that allows men.  If I understand your view, it's acceptable for women to have exclusive clubs because men leer but when men don't want to deal with the headaches of having female members it's discrimination?   Guess we'll agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by Shorty

Female only gyms exist because women want to go to the gym and not be leered at by men and don't want uninvited attention. That is a good thing. Men are not being disadvantedged by the existence of places like Curves. That is not discrtimination.

That is not analagous to a men only golf club.

And, by the same token, the fact that Augusta is a men's club doesn't nmean that women can't paly golf somewhere else.

If I was afemale, I wouldn't want to be a member of Augusta because of what it stands for (or doesn't stand for).

[newtogolf]

I don't see Tiger or any other professional athlete as a role model, he's a professional golfer.  We might want to aspire to play golf like him or another professional golfer but I don't believe people we don't personally know should be our childrens role models.

As for ANGC, it's famous because it was founded by Bobby Jones as an exclusive, private, invitation only mens golf country club.  99.9% of golf fans won't ever get an invitation to join ANGC nor could they afford to join, so the fact that they don't allow female members is really of little significance to the average person.

The PGA and PGA Tour have the right to sever ties with ANGC if they feel pressured by all the women libbers but that still won't prevent ANGC from having a golf tournament.  The Masters just wouldn't count in the FedEx Cup or money rankings and the PGA wouldn't get any marketing or press out of it.

Originally Posted by brocks

This is a general comment, not directed at you personally, since I don't even know what your opinion is about Tiger's conduct.

But it seems that many of the same people who say that Tiger should be a role model, and held to a higher standard because he is the most famous golfer on the planet, are perfectly OK with the most famous golf club on the planet not being held to even average standards.

[Phil McGleno]

Originally Posted by Shorty

Female only gyms exist because women want to go to the gym and not be leered at by men and don't want uninvited attention.

I haven't known a woman who goes to Curves to be the type to be leered at by men.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by burtonda

Brilliant.  Kim Jong Un, Bashar al-Assad, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and Omar al-Bashir would like to hear some more of your insight on the perils of a free press.

I would like to hear some more of your insight in taking things out of context. You may want to check the post just above the one I made to capture said context.

I will assume you don't care to, so lemme help. My post was in reply to another poster's take on the press. See, I wasn't advocating a muzzling of the media, but instead I was intimating that the media was ginning up a story - AGNC usually invites the CEO of IBM to be a member...the new CEO of IBM is a woman...let's connect these dots & try to make an issue of something that fizzled ten years ago. Do you see where I am coming from now?

No? Then at least rest assured that I want no restrictions on the free press and media we all so dearly enjoy. So I trust we're straight on that now.

[burtonda]

Quote:

I would like to hear some more of your insight in taking things out of context. You may want to check the post just above the one I made to capture said context.

I will assume you don't care to, so lemme help. My post was in reply to another poster's take on the press. See, I wasn't advocating a muzzling of the media, but instead I was intimating that the media was ginning up a story - AGNC usually invites the CEO of IBM to be a member...the new CEO of IBM is a woman...let's connect these dots & try to make an issue of something that fizzled ten years ago. Do you see where I am coming from now?

No? Then at least rest assured that I want no restrictions on the free press and media we all so dearly enjoy. So I trust we're straight on that now.

You are correct, I mistakenly quoted your post when it should have been the one above.  All apologies.

I disagree that this issue fizzled ten years ago and is no longer relevant.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by burtonda

Quote:

You are correct, I mistakenly quoted your post when it should have been the one above.  All apologies.

It's all good. Thanks for the clarification.

[brocks]

You are correct, I mistakenly quoted your post when it should have been the one above.  All apologies.

Probably not your fault. Several times a week, I'll click on a post to respond, and it will insert quotes from other posts that I have to manually delete.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Shorty

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Why is it behind the times to have a private men's only club when there are women's only clubs as well.  Is Curves being persecuted for being women only?  It seems that anyone can have an exclusive club except men, especially if they happen to be mostly white men.  I don't get the outrage here, it's a private mens club, women can play there all they want they just (to our knowledge) can't be members which is better than I can say for Curves who don't allow men as members or guests.

Female only gyms exist because women want to go to the gym and not be leered at by men and don't want uninvited attention. That is a good thing. Men are not being disadvantedged by the existence of places like Curves. That is not discrtimination.

That is not analagous to a men only golf club.

I don't see the difference. Your argument utilizes the premise that women are uncomfortable having men around when they work out. Why then couldn't I utilize the premise that men are uncomfortable having women around when they golf, in making the argument that they have a right to a men-only club?

And how are women being disadvantaged by places like Augusta? There are plenty of other golf courses they can be members at, just as there are plenty of other gyms men can be members at other than Curves.

And, there are plenty of examples of woman-only clubs where "leering" would not be an issue. Those clubs are based solely on their desire to not have men around, with no justification other than that's just what they want. So how come men can't do that?

[Jwat381]

I just don't think it's acceptable for outside groups, whether it be minority groups or women, to seek exclusionary organizations (Curves, female only schools, etc.) and also work to gain admittance to private organizations that are exclusionary in their own right. Not to assume this specific female CEO is a member of any female only establishments, but they undoubtedly exist, and rightfully so; but it seems like having some cake and eating it too when there are clubs or gyms or schools where men are not allowed, yet it's national news when a woman isn't allowed in a men's club.

Furthermore, it's not like this is some average country club we're talking about, with a club championship each summer amongst the locals. This is THE private golf club, created by one of the most recognized and influential figures in the sport's long and illustrious history. It's almost hypocritical that this issue is only relevant because the person seeking membership is a woman. I'd love to be a member of Augusta, and I'm a man, so does that give me the right to say that Augusta discriminates against those without money, and that their membership policies are archaic and unfair? Augusta is very secretive about their members and their membership criteria, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude that in order to become a member of Augusta you must be a) very good at golf b) very rich, and c) very much a man. Sorry, sugah, but you only fit 2/3. I only fit 1/3, and I'm sure there are plenty of men who fit 3/3 who are not members.