Mac O'Grady Swings

[BallStriker]

This thread is great.......couple things that stood out to me....first, the crazy clubhead movement right off the ball with the driver (this is the second post)....the clubhead has moved 3 feet before his hands have move 4 inches.......

Second, crazy how much variance he has in ball position.........plenty of balls in the middle (even 3 wood with a tee), and plenty way up front off of front heel....just observations

[Jack Watson]

Mac is too mechanical and body focused for my personal taste.  I was into that stuff for a long time and found it was just too much for me to take.  I did find this video interesting to watch though during my mechanical phase.  So for fans of this stuff here's Gary McCord giving a clinic during his mac phase.  Macs amazing no doubt but I am no longer into too much body mechanics.  Now I view the swing very much like riding a bicycle.

Anyways some here might enjoy this vid if they have not seen it already...

 

[Yff Theos]

Hello all,

I am a moderate fan of TGM (not a literallist and aware of it's weaknesses) and a declared fan of Mac's swings and his researches. Being located ar away and having not any possibilities to attend his schools, I had tried to exchange views with some MORAD-versed guys on another forum with some success until I was thrown away apparently for having not popular beliefs. This forum is the second one where I found some threads that might be of my interest, so welcome all.

I am familiar with all available YouTube vids of Mac's clinics. They are very good as an introduction. There are also some great footages of Mac and Robert Rock there (which have been mentioned in the thread). I would like to discuss Mac's swing further but I do not know if it is allowed to do here as well as if there are guys who I could discuss it with.

[Lihu]

13 hours ago, Yff Theos said:

Hello all,

I am a moderate fan of TGM (not a literallist and aware of it's weaknesses) and a declared fan of Mac's swings and his researches. Being located ar away and having not any possibilities to attend his schools, I had tried to exchange views with some MORAD-versed guys on another forum with some success until I was thrown away apparently for having not popular beliefs. This forum is the second one where I found some threads that might be of my interest, so welcome all.

I am familiar with all available YouTube vids of Mac's clinics. They are very good as an introduction. There are also some great footages of Mac and Robert Rock there (which have been mentioned in the thread). I would like to discuss Mac's swing further but I do not know if it is allowed to do here as well as if there are guys who I could discuss it with.

Welcome!

[colin007]

14 hours ago, Yff Theos said:

Hello all,

I am a moderate fan of TGM (not a literallist and aware of it's weaknesses) and a declared fan of Mac's swings and his researches. Being located ar away and having not any possibilities to attend his schools, I had tried to exchange views with some MORAD-versed guys on another forum with some success until I was thrown away apparently for having not popular beliefs. This forum is the second one where I found some threads that might be of my interest, so welcome all.

I am familiar with all available YouTube vids of Mac's clinics. They are very good as an introduction. There are also some great footages of Mac and Robert Rock there (which have been mentioned in the thread). I would like to discuss Mac's swing further but I do not know if it is allowed to do here as well as if there are guys who I could discuss it with.

Go for it, brother. Keep an open mind, as it looks like you do already recognizing the weaknesses in MORAD. I personally haven't found a better source than The SandTrap for research based, science backed into anywhere. This place is the bee's boobs.

[Yff Theos]

Thank you, gentlemen.

What is important for me to discuss is, as I would consider it, a perfect takeaway (between p1 through p2 and to p3). Imo, lots of swing errors that yield for compensations  occur because of takeaway errors. Let us formulate how this "perfect" takeaway looks (based on Mac O'grady dtl views):

a) between p1 and p2
- hands do not go inside and move linearily away from the target
- clubhead go inside but remains outside hands until p2

b) between p2 and p3
- hands start to go inside
- clubhead continues to go inside and starts to be inside hands from p2 on

c) gradual cocking of wrists (IIRC according to the McCord vid the angles between the shaft and left forearm are 30 deg at p1, 45 deg at p2 and approaching 90 deg at p3 and not exceeding it further on).

Interestingly, both Hogan and Snead (especially Snead) took the handle to the inside much earlier either because of their earlier hip/torso turn inside or because they rotated their forearms earlier.

This is the vid I based my observations on:

(Ed: https://thesandtrap.com/how-to/embed-videos/)

[iacas]

7 hours ago, Yff Theos said:

What is important for me to discuss is, as I would consider it, a perfect takeaway (between p1 through p2 and to p3). Imo, lots of swing errors that yield for compensations  occur because of takeaway errors. Let us formulate how this "perfect" takeaway looks (based on Mac O'grady dtl views):

I think you may be placing too much importance on the takeaway, and treating this one swing as if it's somewhat of a model for every swing. Rickie Fowler's takeaway is different than Mac's. Nicklaus's and Woods's were different.

7 hours ago, Yff Theos said:

a) between p1 and p2
- hands do not go inside and move linearily away from the target
- clubhead go inside but remains outside hands until p2

b) between p2 and p3
- hands start to go inside
- clubhead continues to go inside and starts to be inside hands from p2 on

What determines A2 is often simply the rate of hinging. It's not a "natural" position like A3, A4, A7… hinge it slowly and A2 is much "later" in the swing, hinge it quickly and A2 occurs much sooner.

7 hours ago, Yff Theos said:

Interestingly, both Hogan and Snead (especially Snead) took the handle to the inside much earlier either because of their earlier hip/torso turn inside or because they rotated their forearms earlier.

Right, so why get stuck on only one certain way of doing something?

[Yff Theos]

17 minutes ago, iacas said:

I think you may be placing too much importance on the takeaway, and treating this one swing as if it's somewhat of a model for every swing. Rickie Fowler's takeaway is different than Mac's. Nicklaus's and Woods's were different.

Perhaps it is like you said, but I assumed that Mac's researches aimed at achieving the most efficient swing (efficiency of movement, so to speak) ended in creating a model one. That is why I prefer to discuss Mac's swing than e.g. Fowler's one.

 

28 minutes ago, iacas said:

What determines A2 is often simply the rate of hinging. It's not a "natural" position like A3, A4, A7… hinge it slowly and A2 is much "later" in the swing, hinge it quickly and A2 occurs much sooner.

A very good point. What hinging depends on then except one's will ? A grip type? Amount of forearm rotation?

BTW, I understand As are equivalents of ps here, right ?

32 minutes ago, iacas said:

Right, so why get stuck on only one certain way of doing something?

I certainly will not get stuck on it. I am currently interested in Mac's swing, that is all.

[iacas]

Just now, Yff Theos said:

Perhaps it is like you said, but I assumed that Mac's researches aimed at achieving the most efficient swing (efficiency of movement, so to speak) ended in creating a model one. That is why I prefer to discuss Mac's swing than e.g. Fowler's one.

Mac did a lot of things simply because he liked how they looked. He's nowhere near as scientific as you seem to be thinking.

[Yff Theos]

19 minutes ago, iacas said:

Mac did a lot of things simply because he liked how they looked. He's nowhere near as scientific as you seem to be thinking.

I heard he had given the Yellow Book to his dentist friend who had involved some scientists. Perhaps this is only a legend, but if not, it appears to be quite a scientific approach to the golf swing. I will be interested in getting to know any other good scientific researches though. You are right that from a pure aesthetic point of view Mac's swing is of top quality and perhaps enhances that way my willingness to know it better.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

I heard he had given the Yellow Book to his dentist friend who had involved some scientists. Perhaps this is only a legend, but if not, it appears to be quite a scientific approach to the golf swing. I will be interested in getting to know any other good scientific researches though. You are right that from a pure aesthetic point of view Mac's swing is of top quality and perhaps enhances that way my willingness to know it better.

Paging @mvmac…

[Jack Watson]

As far as Macs swings go,  I like them.  As far as my own improvement goes though I am me.  I need to understand myself and my swing if I am to improve it.  Improving it for me means making it easier to get the results I am after.  You can only work with what you have and are and move forward from there.  It's easy to pick an aspect of a swing that you like and say man if I could only do that I'd be playing great.  Chances are in reality unless you are very experienced that what you think is wrong and that aspect might even be bad for your own swing.

I spent time with the yellow book and imo what you seek is not found there,  or in Macs swing or Hogans or Nicklaus's or Moe Normans or anyone else's.  

[Yff Theos]

38 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

As far as Macs swings go,  I like them.  As far as my own improvement goes though I am me.  I need to understand myself and my swing if I am to improve it.  Improving it for me means making it easier to get the results I am after.  You can only work with what you have and are and move forward from there.  It's easy to pick an aspect of a swing that you like and say man if I could only do that I'd be playing great.  Chances are in reality unless you are very experienced that what you think is wrong and that aspect might even be bad for your own swing.

I spent time with the yellow book and imo what you seek is not found there,  or in Macs swing or Hogans or Nicklaus's or Moe Normans or anyone else's.  

I am searching for an efficient simple swing not only for myself but also to teach others. As you mentioned, I have not found the holy grail in TGM despite studying it for a few years that is why I turn my face somewhere else but not so far away, which is I guess pretty normal attitude in my shoes. I have been studying S&T for some time and found it too limited and one-sided approach.

[Patch]

10 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

I am searching for an efficient simple swing not only for myself but also to teach others. As you mentioned, I have not found the holy grail in TGM despite studying it for a few years that is why I turn my face somewhere else but not so far away, which is I guess pretty normal attitude in my shoes. I have been studying S&T for some time and found it too limited and one-sided approach.

When you find that efficient, simple swing, call me. I will bank roll you, and we'll both be multi millionaires. 

[mvmac]

14 hours ago, Yff Theos said:

What is important for me to discuss is, as I would consider it, a perfect takeaway (between p1 through p2 and to p3). Imo, lots of swing errors that yield for compensations  occur because of takeaway errors. Let us formulate how this "perfect" takeaway looks (based on Mac O'grady dtl views):

a) between p1 and p2
- hands do not go inside and move linearily away from the target
- clubhead go inside but remains outside hands until p2

b) between p2 and p3
- hands start to go inside
- clubhead continues to go inside and starts to be inside hands from p2 on

Let me save you a lot of time from someone who has been down this road. Forget the Mac takeaway. Mac says that his CP model is based off of Snead and Hogan, yet neither of them had an early set off the ball. Mac's reasoning is that he wanted to load the wrists and right arm early and then just rotate. Cool idea but in reality you can't just zero out the wrist set, so it's actually better to do it gradually. I think he also just liked the way it looked, his takeaway stuff isn't based on any actual scientific studies.

Going with an early set/fold can be a speed lose, you "use up" the trail arm stretch shorten movement.

Only golfers in the HOF that had an early set that I can think of off the top of my head are Johnny Miller and Nick Faldo. Nicklaus, Sarazen, Hogan, Snead, Nelson, Watson, Tiger, Jones, Player, Norman, Palmer, Mickelson, Singh, McIlroy, etc, had what you might call more of a "one-piece" takeaway. Meaning the butt of the club got well past the trail thigh, pivot turned the arms back, not a lot of wrist hinge, trail palm faced the ground, trail arm above the lead arm.

7 hours ago, Yff Theos said:

BTW, I understand As are equivalents of ps here, right ?

Correct.

6 hours ago, Yff Theos said:

I heard he had given the Yellow Book to his dentist friend who had involved some scientists. Perhaps this is only a legend, but if not, it appears to be quite a scientific approach to the golf swing. I will be interested in getting to know any other good scientific researches though. 

There are so many stories out there I think he's forgotten what originally happened  He told me and others that he spend 1M dollars of his own money funding research at UCLA.

6 hours ago, Yff Theos said:

Perhaps this is only a legend, but if not, it appears to be quite a scientific approach to the golf swing.

Mac did research into the eyes and the inner ear fluids, how those systems work and applied it to golf. The other things he did was study photos of players and figured out how he thought the players were moving. The "figuring out" included consulting with different kind of doctors on his thoughts and learning the basics of the biomechanics involved.

Mac has been very influential to the game and moved golf instruction forward in the right direction. He was one of the first instructors to film players at tournaments and use video on a regular basis.

He got a lot of things right that they are "discovering" or verifying now with technology and the science guys.

5 hours ago, Yff Theos said:

I am searching for an efficient simple swing not only for myself but also to teach others. As you mentioned, I have not found the holy grail in TGM despite studying it for a few years that is why I turn my face somewhere else but not so far away, which is I guess pretty normal attitude in my shoes.

Then I would recommend looking into Mike Bender and what he teaches. The CP swing Mac likes isn't easy to teach players, especially higher handicappers. Bender basically teaches Mac's CF or Model 1 pattern, Bender spent years with Mac. Mac doesn't teach CF. If I had to teach one swing that's what I would do.

5 hours ago, Yff Theos said:

I have been studying S&T for some time and found it too limited and one-sided approach.

Just take out all the weight forward backswing stuff and there is some good info there. The feet flare, knees changing flex, grip, stacking the COG's, thrusting and tucking pelvis, all the tilt, turn, extension pieces originated from Mac (except Mac never called it extension).

[mchepp]

@mvmac I see Dana teaching one of his students who plays on the European tour (Daniel I think) what looks like some CP stuff. Does he change his pattern to hit up on the driver? I would imagine CP with the driver would not be optimum for today's drivers. Any insight you have?

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, mchepp said:

@mvmac I see Dana teaching one of his students who plays on the European tour (Daniel I think) what looks like some CP stuff. Does he change his pattern to hit up on the driver? I would imagine CP with the driver would not be optimum for today's drivers. Any insight you have?

I think that calling anything "CP" or "CF" these days is a fool's errand.

Too many times we confuse CP with swinging left a little and CF with swinging right a little. The patterns themselves not only have far more pieces than just that, but the patterns themselves have changed and will continue to change over time as Mac does whatever he wants to do with them based on however he feels at the time.

[Yff Theos]

3 hours ago, mvmac said:

Let me save you a lot of time from someone who has been down this road. Forget the Mac takeaway. Mac says that his CP model is based off of Snead and Hogan, yet neither of them had an early set off the ball. Mac's reasoning is that he wanted to load the wrists and right arm early and then just rotate. Cool idea but in reality you can't just zero out the wrist set, so it's actually better to do it gradually. I think he also just liked the way it looked, his takeaway stuff isn't based on any actual scientific studies.

Going with an early set/fold can be a speed lose, you "use up" the trail arm stretch shorten movement.

Only golfers in the HOF that had an early set that I can think of off the top of my head are Johnny Miller and Nick Faldo. Nicklaus, Sarazen, Hogan, Snead, Nelson, Watson, Tiger, Jones, Player, Norman, Palmer, Mickelson, Singh, McIlroy, etc, had what you might call more of a "one-piece" takeaway. Meaning the butt of the club got well past the trail thigh, pivot turned the arms back, not a lot of wrist hinge, trail palm faced the ground, trail arm above the lead arm.

Correct.

There are so many stories out there I think he's forgotten what originally happened  He told me and others that he spend 1M dollars of his own money funding research at UCLA.

Mac did research into the eyes and the inner ear fluids, how those systems work and applied it to golf. The other things he did was study photos of players and figured out how he thought the players were moving. The "figuring out" included consulting with different kind of doctors on his thoughts and learning the basics of the biomechanics involved.

Mac has been very influential to the game and moved golf instruction forward in the right direction. He was one of the first instructors to film players at tournaments and use video on a regular basis.

He got a lot of things right that they are "discovering" or verifying now with technology and the science guys.

Then I would recommend looking into Mike Bender and what he teaches. The CP swing Mac likes isn't easy to teach players, especially higher handicappers. Bender basically teaches Mac's CF or Model 1 pattern, Bender spent years with Mac. Mac doesn't teach CF. If I had to teach one swing that's what I would do.

Just take out all the weight forward backswing stuff and there is some good info there. The feet flare, knees changing flex, grip, stacking the COG's, thrusting and tucking pelvis, all the tilt, turn, extension pieces originated from Mac (except Mac never called it extension).

Thank you for a detailed answer. I shall revert to it in a couple of hours.