Shaping the Ball

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Jakester23

What percentage of weight would you say should be on your front foot at address and at impact?

The average amateur has 55% weight/pressure forward and the average PGA Tour player has between 80-95% of his pressure on his front foot at impact.  Good thread to check out

http://thesandtrap.com/t/64993/weight-forward-using-swingcatalyst-and-sam-balance-lab-to-explain-pressure-throughout-the-swing

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by mvmac

The reason is having a flat left wrist, forward shaft lean, with the weight forward allows the golfer to hit the ball before the club head's low point.  So at impact the club is traveling down, OUT and forward.  Obviously there have been great players that have faded the ball, how did they do it with the handle forward?  They just aimed their bodies left, Nicklaus, Couples, Trevino, pre-setting their path left.  Others might have just swung more left, but that is a small group.

Originally Posted by cipher

Get what you are saying but with a standard set up, face angle and inside out path it will be a draw.  I hit 3 or 4 cuts into greens yesterday by opening my stance and club face slightly.  With a more neutral set up it promotes a draw, as you know, which was what I was getting at.  To hit a cut with forward shaft lean you have to change another component as Mike is saying, that is why for me the answer is draw.

Yeah, I guess you guys are right. All else being equal ... square stance and swing ... then catching it on the downswing means catching it on the outswing, which is a requirement of a push-draw.

I guess I'm looking at it more from the standpoint that everything else is very rarely equal.  Regardless of whether or not you play a cut or draw, or want to play a cut or draw, you are still going to want forward shaft lean - as a result of weight forward and a flat left wrist (or whatever you guys are calling it these days ;))

But I do understand the point.  If you are increasing forward shaft lean, or getting it where you had none, then your path at impact is always going to be right-er than prior.  That, by and large, is going to promote more of a draw (or perhaps just less of a slice or fade).

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

But I do understand the point.  If you are increasing forward shaft lean, or getting it where you had none, then your path at impact is always going to be right-er than prior.  That, by and large, is going to promote more of a draw (or perhaps just less of a slice or fade).

Yes obviously having the weight forward and a flat left wrist doesn't guarantee a draw but it certainly doesn't hurt

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Jakester23

What percentage of weight would you say should be on your front foot at address and at impact?

Read more here: http://purestrike5sk.com/ :-)

[Fade76]

For the life of me I can't visualize a push draw.  The though of leaving my club face slightly open and swinging in to out just doesn't work.  I tried and tried to do it on the range.  All I got was a big push slice.

I have no problem hitting a normal draw.  setting up to the right of target.  clubface aimed at target.

Confused.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Fade76

For the life of me I can't visualize a push draw.  The though of leaving my club face slightly open and swinging in to out just doesn't work.  I tried and tried to do it on the range.  All I got was a big push slice.

I have no problem hitting a normal draw.  setting up to the right of target.  clubface aimed at target.

Confused.

No need to be confused.  Not everybody (probably not most ;)) is actually able to return the club to the exact same position at impact that they were in at setup.  I don't set up with the clubface aimed right of my target either.  I set up with my feet square and my clubface square, yet when I swing it good, I can still hit a push draw.

There is also no rule that says a push draw is "correct" either.  If lining up to the right of the target and hitting, presumably, a straight draw works for you, then why change?

Keep it simple and do what works for you!

[Fade76]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

No need to be confused.  Not everybody (probably not most ;)) is actually able to return the club to the exact same position at impact that they were in at setup.  I don't set up with the clubface aimed right of my target either.  I set up with my feet square and my clubface square, yet when I swing it good, I can still hit a push draw.

There is also no rule that says a push draw is "correct" either.  If lining up to the right of the target and hitting, presumably, a straight draw works for you, then why change?

Keep it simple and do what works for you!

I know but I'm addicted to trying to shape the ball different ways and the push draw has to be the sweetest ball flight there is.

[Jakester23]

I agree I would love to be able to hit the push draw on command. I kinda hit a pot hole on my shot shaping I've been struggling with consistency. I think I figured it out a swing flaw I have time to go to the range and get to work.

[savosean]

Holy moly what an incredible read, thanks for the article and all the time you spent on it.

[Shenanigunz]

When you talk about path, is this achieved by body alignment and not a change in swing plane?

[boogielicious]

Originally Posted by Shenanigunz

When you talk about path, is this achieved by body alignment and not a change in swing plane?

The path going into impact is affected by a lot of things and alignment is one of them.  But other keys will contribute more.  Sliding your hips forward during the downswing, weight forward at impact, keeping your arms connected to your body during the downswing and keeping your right elbow in front (see pitch elbow thread) all will help the path come from the inside.

Many pros have different alignments at set up and different backswings.  But they all arrive at impact in the same position.

[Mello]

How do you approach your setup when making alignment changes? Do you first setup parallel to your target line and move the left or right foot back? And where should the shoulders be aligned?

I typically set the face down (because I like to spot-align the face) and then I will set my body up to that.

Does that answer your question?

Hi Erik - thanks for this valuable thread!

Erik / All - I could use a little more clarification on alignment changes.  When you make an alignment change, what exactly changes besides moving one of your foot back a little?  Does your should alignment, ball position, hands, or head changes?  For example, let's say your normal setup is parallel to the target line.  When you open up your stance (let's say 4 degrees to the right), you move your back foot (for righties) back a little.  Does anything else changes or is that just it?

I'm assuming nothing else changes and you play the ball as it sits?

Thanks in advance!

[iacas]

@Mello , that would be a closed stance, fwiw. To answer your question, the alignment of my hips, knees, and shoulders also changes. It's a wholesale alignment change. On bigger curves (rare) I'll alter ball position slightly, but generally it's what I said just above - altering club path by altering alignment, and altering start direction with the club face.

[Mello]

@Mello, that would be a closed stance, fwiw.

To answer your question, the alignment of my hips, knees, and shoulders also changes. It's a wholesale alignment change.

On bigger curves (rare) I'll alter ball position slightly, but generally it's what I said just above - altering club path by altering alignment, and altering start direction with the club face.

You are right in that the example I cited is a closed stance but I'm still missing something...

You said when you close your stance, your whole alignment changes.  I have some follow-up questions:

1. When you close your stance, you'd have to re-position the ball to be in the correct location based on your new stance (as opposed to leaving the ball where it was when you're in the parallel left position and then playing the ball from there with your closed stance)?

2. If the answer to question #1 is a yes, then to me, a closed stance is nothing more than lining up right of target with a closed club face - is this correct?

I'm not sure if my questions from above make sense....

[Ernest Jones]

Correct me if I'm wrong @iacas , but opening or closing your stance doesn't automatically mean your changing your alignment right? For example, I can set-up for a pitch shot with an open, square or closed stance and choose to be aligned directly at the flag from all three stances correct? There will be differences (or compensations) in the execution of all three shots to remain on target but I'm still "aligned" with my target. The ball doesn't know where my feet are...or is alignment not really synonymous with aim, as in I can align myself left (open) of the target but still aim at the target? Or am I just caught in a semantic spiral??

I'm hesitating to hit submit because I'm probably being an idiot here....oh well...SUBMIT.

EDIT* yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm an idiot Alignment and aim are closely related but independant concepts...right???

[iacas]

1. When you close your stance, you'd have to re-position the ball to be in the correct location based on your new stance (as opposed to leaving the ball where it was when you're in the parallel left position and then playing the ball from there with your closed stance)?

Perhaps, but closing your stance ten degrees doesn't appreciably change the ball position.

The real answer: I don't really think about it - when I need to aim way left for a big cut, I walk up to the ball already pointing to the left, so the ball just falls in the same position as always, as if I'm hitting to a target well to the left. The face just happens to be pointing well to the right, but in my mind, the "target" is well left.

2. If the answer to question #1 is a yes, then to me, a closed stance is nothing more than lining up right of target with a closed club face - is this correct?

You could probably look at it that way as well. Though again better players will sometimes manipulate flight by changing the ball location as well - farther back will produce more of an outward and downward path with the clubhead, and forward will produce a shallower and more inward path of the clubhead. If I play a draw I can theoretically play a straighter shot by moving the ball forward a little in my stance and changing nothing about my alignment.

Correct me if I'm wrong @iacas , but opening or closing your stance doesn't automatically mean your changing your alignment right?

That's exactly what it means - YOUR alignment. That's different than your clubface's alignment.

For example, I can set-up for a pitch shot with an open, square or closed stance and choose to be aligned directly at the flag from all three stances correct? There will be differences (or compensations) in the execution of all three shots to remain on target but I'm still "aligned" with my target. The ball doesn't know where my feet are...or is alignment not really synonymous with aim, as in I can align myself left (open) of the target but still aim at the target? Or am I just caught in a semantic spiral??

Pitch shots don't tend to hook or slice much. In other words, you're off topic. :D

Just picking on you… The ball doesn't know where your feet are, no, but if you want to work the ball and make the same swing (again, shaping the ball, not a pitch shot), one of the easiest ways is to change your clubhead path by changing your alignment.

[mvmac]

2. If the answer to question #1 is a yes, then to me, a closed stance is nothing more than lining up right of target with a closed club face - is this correct?

Face would be closed in relation to your body lines but aimed slightly right of your target.

Correct me if I'm wrong @iacas , but opening or closing your stance doesn't automatically mean your changing your alignment right? For example, I can set-up for a pitch shot with an open, square or closed stance and choose to be aligned directly at the flag from all three stances correct? There will be differences (or compensations) in the execution of all three shots to remain on target but I'm still "aligned" with my target. The ball doesn't know where my feet are...or is alignment not really synonymous with aim, as in I can align myself left (open) of the target but still aim at the target? Or am I just caught in a semantic spiral??

Like Erik said, that is your alignment, it would be odd to align the feet left but have the hips and shoulders at the target.  I guess you could say you align your body and aim the face, whatever helps you understand it better.  Also agree with Erik on aiming the face first, spot checking and then align the body.

[Mello]

Correct me if I'm wrong @iacas , but opening or closing your stance doesn't automatically mean your changing your alignment right? For example, I can set-up for a pitch shot with an open, square or closed stance and choose to be aligned directly at the flag from all three stances correct? There will be differences (or compensations) in the execution of all three shots to remain on target but I'm still "aligned" with my target. The ball doesn't know where my feet are...or is alignment not really synonymous with aim, as in I can align myself left (open) of the target but still aim at the target? Or am I just caught in a semantic spiral??

I'm hesitating to hit submit because I'm probably being an idiot here....oh well...SUBMIT.

EDIT* yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm an idiot Alignment and aim are closely related but independant concepts...right???

Ernest - as you can tell, I was under the same impression you're in regarding changing your stance and the alignments of your body.  In fact I'm glad you asked your questions as it told me I'm not the only confused one out there regarding this topic

Thanks Erik and Mike - I think you two have answered my questions and solved this mystery for me.  For some reason, I've always thought that opening or closing your stance ONLY means you change your footings but the rest of your body alignment (hips, shoulders, arms, etc) all remain the same lining up parallel left of the target.  Thinking in terms of a closed stance being that I'm lining up right of the target with a clubface that is closed to my stance (and vice versa for an open stance) connected the dots for me.

Have a great one!