Ball Position and Swing Arc for Irons

[poser]

Originally Posted by iacas

The bottom of your swing arc should not be in the middle of your stance. That's why you're confused.

You know alot of your posts just point out people are wrong but, you never give them the answer.  I'm sure he would be alot less confused if you gave him the answer to his quesiton....

For me personally I play the ball forward of center maybe 2-3 balls inside my left foot and just widen my stance with each club.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Jon Robert

So now you are presuming to speak for others huh? "we've"

We = Mike and I, owners of the site. He's okay with me saying "we" and including him.

Originally Posted by luu5

I guess Manuel de la Torre is not trying to hit down, but I bet he is not trying to hit up either. In the end his club goes down and hit's the ball on downward path. He can have his bottom near back foot, but I guess his stance is also very open, or he is drawing/hooking balls like mad.

Yeah, from what I gather, MdlT and a few others in his "group" favor very much a "picking" motion. Very shallow AoA to zero, no real divots to speak of, etc.

Originally Posted by bobsuruncle

Hi, I'm very keen to know if this is correct - i.e. that the ball position is the same relative to the lead foot ... I've read and been told so many different opinions about this specific issue.  Thank you.

It can vary. Some people do this. Some people (I'm more in this group) prefer to keep a stance width that's almost the same and vary the ball position a little - it is just barely forward of center with a wedge, and off the left heel or arch with a driver. 5-iron is roughly in between those two extremes.

Originally Posted by poser

You know alot of your posts just point out people are wrong but, you never give them the answer.  I'm sure he would be alot less confused if you gave him the answer to his quesiton....

I disagree, but appreciate the feedback. I feel others already had given more detail, so I was trying to cut to the heart of the matter: if his #3 was wrong, then it frees him up to realize that #1 and #2 can still work out.

You can always give more information - you can't take back information you've already given out.

[Jon Robert]

Originally Posted by colin007

How is citing a source "presuming"?

I don't know why, but this guy and OCEANSWHATEVER make me think of Patrick...

Everyone reminds you of Patrick because you live in a world of your own making.  Like the world that contains the "source"  The mysterious sources that you reference "How is citing a source "presuming"  The source you refer to has existed only in the world of your own making.

[newtogolf]

Oh, I thought it was because you, like the others mentioned, are another self-professed "golf expert" who has neither the handicap or demonstrated credentials to cause us to take anything you write seriously.  Anyone can cut and paste from wiki, doesn't mean it's accurate and BTW shouting (use or large fonts and bolds) is annoying and doesn't lend any additional validity to your posts.

Originally Posted by Jon Robert

Everyone reminds you of Patrick because you live in a world of your own making.  Like the world that contains the "source"  The mysterious sources that you reference "How is citing a source "presuming"  The source you refer to has existed only in the world of your own making.

[Jon Robert]

Originally Posted by bobsuruncle

Hi, I'm very keen to know if this is correct - i.e. that the ball position is the same relative to the lead foot ... I've read and been told so many different opinions about this specific issue.  Thank you.

The ball needs to be where you can deliver the club head to the back of it squarely (obviously)

As far as the position relative to the lead foot???????????????????????

Try some experiments that show the ball should NOT be position according to foot position at all. I think people always stand the same way and happen to look down and see the ball and the foot. Two easy things to see together

Place a ball on the ground.  Place feet together and swing a baseball bat at the ball. It is too short and will not it the ball but that is fine.  As you are doing this pay attention of one thing and one thing only THE ARC MADE BY THE SWING

Repeat but make your feet as wide as possible with out being dumb about it. Repeat the swing. Has the arc changed? No it has not it is exactly the same

Now move the ball from the center of your stance and place it way over there by the left heel

Swing the bat as before. What has happened to the arc?  You did one of two things 1) swung as before in front of you and the ball is no where near the peak of the arc or 2) altered the direction you are facing to be left  to keep the ball in the middle of the swing arc peak.

If you swing as originally and now want to actually hit the ball you would need 1) longer club to reach it as it is way over there by the left foot 2) The very difficult manipulation of the swing arc to avoid hitting it out of bounds to the left which is where the swing arc would send it  THE FARTHER YOU MOVE THE BALL LEFT THE HARDER AND EVEN MAYBE IMPOSSIBLE IT WILL BE TO CONTRIVE A SWING ARC CHANGE TO HIT IT AT THE TARGET.  You would need a shuffle board type move to  get the club to the ball.

SO if you have a very wide stance placing the ball at the left foot heel is bad because of what I described above.  Placing the  ball off the left heel with a narrow stance requires very little swing arc manipulation because the ball is on that arc to begin with.

The arc made while swing a bat never changes it is always out in front of you. Always on the same circle give or take a hair. Your feet can be inside this circle with a narrow stance or outside with a very wide stance. BUT YOUR TORSO IS ALWAYS IN THE SAME EXACT SPOT IN REFERENCE TO THE ARC MADE WHILE SWINGING THE BAT

THEREFOR YOU CAN POSITION THE BALL LEFT ARM PIT, LEFT NECK, RIGHT NECK ETC AND IT WILL NEVER CHANGE IN RELATION TO THE SWING ARC. NO MATTER WHERE YOUR FEET ARE. In a sand trap with the left foot on the grass and the right foot deep in the bunker. It don't matter because you always line the ball up using the torso as the reference anyway.

==================================================================

OK Why move the ball at all on this arc. That is to say why move the ball forward for a driver.

2 factors:

ANGLES AND LEVERS CHANGE WITH LONGER CLUBS

Try hitting a wedge - done

Put the ball in the same spot as was for the wedge and use a driver - can't shaft is too long  Two choices

1) move the ball straight out enough to accommodate the driver length while noticing  with same grip and with sole on ground the driver will send the ball to right  field. (hands forward set up) If you manipulate the club to face the target then it rests on a knife edge where face meets sole and has no loft left.

2) Using same wedge grip keep the sole on the ground and arc slide  it left until the face is pointing at the target.

2nd factor  TIME DURATION

It takes more time to get the club head to the ball with a longer club. So this can throw the timing of the angles and lever out of whack as well So change the angles to accommodate the longer time.

[colin007]

[dsc123]

Originally Posted by Jon Robert

.....

Do you write all of this out or just copy it from somewhere?

[Jon Robert]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Oh, I thought it was because you, like the others mentioned, are another self-professed "golf expert" who has neither the handicap or demonstrated credentials to cause us to take anything you write seriously.  Anyone can cut and paste from wiki, doesn't mean it's accurate and BTW shouting (use or large fonts and bolds) is annoying and doesn't lend any additional validity to your posts.

It is NOT possible to shout when using the written word. Some may say CAPS draw attention to the statement while others looking to whine, generally piss and moan WILL whine and generally piss and moan claiming it is shouting. When in fact shouting requires sound waves from a persons  mouth.

Really newtogolf. There are much better ways to vent a miserable pathetic life than sniping on forums.  For example I am told that this one is very effective:

a) Acquire a long object that has some strength and mass to it, like a golf club

b) Warm up with some stretches to avoid hurting yourself and giving reasons to be even more miserably sour, biting and snippy than ever

c) Wield said golf club about in some sort of reasonable appearance of a martial arts warm up to the attack.   AGAIN avoid hurting yourself and giving reasons to be even more miserably sour, biting and snippy than ever

d) While thinking of all the pathetic losers that you have to deal with on the Sand Trap forum that you voluntarily vex yourself with daily - strike a pose of authority holding the golf club high over your head in the pregnant moment pause fashion.

e) Loudly declare something profound like all the losers on the Sand Trap forum that vex my soul due to my voluntary involvement shall hence forth taste of my wrath!  KEEP IN MIND DOING A SECOND TAKE LOSES ITS PROFOUND POWER AND AUTHORITY SO GET IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME. DO NOT STUMBLE

f)  Deliver a smashing blow to your computer and these losers . Make it a 5iron downward blow taking an impressive divot out of the carpeting. While laying waste to the computer and any other inanimate objects that may interfere try to get a little dirt on the cheeks and if you are real lucky a little blood on the face as well.

g) after delivering judgment and wreaking havoc Strike a victorious pose  being sure to let them see the dirt and blood. Then seek out another pass time since you on The Sand Trap forum has been nothing but snipes and venting of a miserable existence.  Besides you won't have a computer anyway,  it has been subjugated to your authority and smashed to smitherines

[rustyredcab]

Originally Posted by bobsuruncle

Hi, I'm very keen to know if this is correct - i.e. that the ball position is the same relative to the lead foot ... I've read and been told so many different opinions about this specific issue.  Thank you.

It was correct for Moe Norman (my model). I read in another thread (that I could not find again) that Hogan did the same and illustrated it in his book. I believe many other use the same concept. But as you can see in our little community, not everyone.

Like so much in golf, there is no absolute correct answer that everyone agrees is the best way to do it.

I can tell you two things:

1. I love using a consistent ball position relative to my lead foot in part because it helps me repeat my correct position.

2. I never think about the bottom of my arc. I think about making good contact with my hands leading leading the club head. I look at the front of the ball. But I have no idea if I'm trying for the bottom to be near the ball or far in front. And I've got plenty of swing thoughts so I don't need another.:)

[newtogolf]

Thanks, that's better than most of the golf advice I've seen you provide here.

Originally Posted by Jon Robert

It is NOT possible to shout when using the written word. Some may say CAPS draw attention to the statement while others looking to whine, generally piss and moan WILL whine and generally piss and moan claiming it is shouting. When in fact shouting requires sound waves from a persons  mouth.

Really newtogolf. There are much better ways to vent a miserable pathetic life than sniping on forums.  For example I am told that this one is very effective:

a) Acquire a long object that has some strength and mass to it, like a golf club

b) Warm up with some stretches to avoid hurting yourself and giving reasons to be even more miserably sour, biting and snippy than ever

c) Wield said golf club about in some sort of reasonable appearance of a martial arts warm up to the attack.   AGAIN avoid hurting yourself and giving reasons to be even more miserably sour, biting and snippy than ever

d) While thinking of all the pathetic losers that you have to deal with on the Sand Trap forum that you voluntarily vex yourself with daily - strike a pose of authority holding the golf club high over your head in the pregnant moment pause fashion.

e) Loudly declare something profound like all the losers on the Sand Trap forum that vex my soul due to my voluntary involvement shall hence forth taste of my wrath!  KEEP IN MIND DOING A SECOND TAKE LOSES ITS PROFOUND POWER AND AUTHORITY SO GET IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME. DO NOT STUMBLE

f)  Deliver a smashing blow to your computer and these losers . Make it a 5iron downward blow taking an impressive divot out of the carpeting. While laying waste to the computer and any other inanimate objects that may interfere try to get a little dirt on the cheeks and if you are real lucky a little blood on the face as well.

g) after delivering judgment and wreaking havoc Strike a victorious pose  being sure to let them see the dirt and blood. Then seek out another pass time since you on The Sand Trap forum has been nothing but snipes and venting of a miserable existence.  Besides you won't have a computer anyway,  it has been subjugated to your authority and smashed to smitherines