Lost Ball- Do you have to look?

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I can just about guarantee you that no matter how well I may hit my provisional ball, I'm going to make at least a minimal effort to find the original ball, simply because I will save one stroke almost 100% of the time if I find it.  I have hit probably several hundred provisional balls in my life, and I have never failed to at least make a token effort to find the ball.  If my original ball is in so much trouble that I won't look for it, then I'm not even bothering to call the second ball a provisional.

You may not know how much trouble your ball is in or not until after you have reached the area.

Its too late to call your second a provisional then.

You slice your ball into what you know is a heavily treed area just over the brow of a hill. You have never previously found a ball of yours in that area. You play a second. Walk up the fairway and find your ball has bounced off a tree into the fairway. You are now playing 4. Good decision.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

You may not know how much trouble your ball is in or not until after you have reached the area.

Its too late to call your second a provisional then.

You slice your ball into what you know is a heavily treed area just over the brow of a hill. You have never previously found a ball of yours in that area. You play a second. Walk up the fairway and find your ball has bounced off a tree into the fairway. You are now playing 4. Good decision.

I'm pretty sure he's aware of that, Rulesman, and would have called a provisional in such a case. There are some cases where you can hit a ball in such jail that you wouldn't want to find it, in which case you can save yourself the effort and prevent your opponent from finding it by not playing a provisional and just hitting another ball.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by iacas

I'm pretty sure he's aware of that, Rulesman, and would have called a provisional in such a case. There are some cases where you can hit a ball in such jail that you wouldn't want to find it, in which case you can save yourself the effort and prevent your opponent from finding it by not playing a provisional and just hitting another ball.

Of course, this is only a big issue if your provisional was a truly phenomenal shot. Most of the time, even if your provisional is in play, it's not that big a deal to go back and hit another shot instead of taking the provisional. (Except for the annoyance/pace of play factor, I guess.).

[iacas]

Originally Posted by zeg

Of course, this is only a big issue if your provisional was a truly phenomenal shot. Most of the time, even if your provisional is in play, it's not that big a deal to go back and hit another shot instead of taking the provisional. (Except for the annoyance/pace of play factor, I guess.).

Yep.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I can just about guarantee you that no matter how well I may hit my provisional ball, I'm going to make at least a minimal effort to find the original ball, simply because I will save one stroke almost 100% of the time if I find it.  I have hit probably several hundred provisional balls in my life, and I have never failed to at least make a token effort to find the ball.  If my original ball is in so much trouble that I won't look for it, then I'm not even bothering to call the second ball a provisional.

You may not know how much trouble your ball is in or not until after you have reached the area.

Its too late to call your second a provisional then.

You slice your ball into what you know is a heavily treed area just over the brow of a hill. You have never previously found a ball of yours in that area. You play a second. Walk up the fairway and find your ball has bounced off a tree into the fairway. You are now playing 4. Good decision.

My home course in Colorado has native grass which can grow 4 feet tall.  When the ball heads out into that more than 2 clublengths from the edge, you don't even think about a provisional ball.  Even if you get extremely lucky and manage to recover the original ball, you will never be able to make a swing at it.  In such a case I don't bother to call a provisional ball because I don't want to have to walk all the way back to the previous spot if the original ball is accidentally found.  There would be no other reasonable option.  If the original ball just goes toward the edge of the native, then I would play a provisional because I may be able to proceed under 28b or 28c if the original ball is found.

I know how the rule works, both for Rule 27-2 and Rule 28.  Nearly 100% of my play is under the Rules of Golf, and has been for nearly 30 years.  I play the same whether competition or casual, even if I'm the only player on the course.  I get no pleasure or satisfaction from playing any other way.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I can just about guarantee you that no matter how well I may hit my provisional ball, I'm going to make at least a minimal effort to find the original ball, simply because I will save one stroke almost 100% of the time if I find it.  I have hit probably several hundred provisional balls in my life, and I have never failed to at least make a token effort to find the ball.  If my original ball is in so much trouble that I won't look for it, then I'm not even bothering to call the second ball a provisional.

I`d say this is not taking full advantage of the rules in a stroke play event- i.e. suppose you hit your original tee ball and provisional deep into 4 foot native grass.  I think it would be to your benefit to find your original and be able to go back to the tee and play 3.  Of course, if you hit your provisional in the fairway, just simply choose not to look for your original.

Originally Posted by iacas

What's your point? That players will use the rules to their benefit when possible? Good for them. Obviously you're not saying you want to force people to look for five minutes every time. Players have options. The smarter the player, and the better they know the Rules, the more likely they are to be aware of their options. The same goes for their opponents.

But again, what's your point? In a sentence, please.

Your original question was answered: you're not required to make a "good faith" effort. You have the option to not look for your ball. Your opponent has the option to look for your ball.

Nope. You can rephrase it all you want but you always have the option to look or not to look, and your opponents have the same (until they do not). What changes is whether the player (or his opponent) feels it's worth looking or not.

My point is that the current potential lost ball/provisional ball rule with the OPTION of whether you want to search for the original or not potentially has the PRACTICAL EFFECT of having two balls in play where a player can decide not to look for his first one if prefers his second one in a limited number of situations.  This is more applicable in stroke play where it is my understanding that it is considered poor etiquette to look for an opponents ball if they choose not to look for it.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MEfree

My point is that the current potential lost ball/provisional ball rule with the OPTION of whether you want to search for the original or not potentially has the PRACTICAL EFFECT of having two balls in play where a player can decide not to look for his first one if prefers his second one in a limited number of situations.  This is more applicable in stroke play where it is my understanding that it is considered poor etiquette to look for an opponents ball if they choose not to look for it.

I disagree. Convince yourself all you want, but no - two balls are not in play. One ball is in play until such time as one of the conditions for a lost ball (or the ball is determined to be OB) are satisfied the other ball is in play.

It's not considered poor etiquette. You can be DQed for breaches of etiquette and the Rules specifically cover this situation and not only say nothing about etiquette but explicitly state that the opponent can search for your ball:

27-2b/1

Continuation of Play with Provisional Ball Without Searching for Original Ball

Q. At a par-3 hole, a player hits his tee shot into dense woods. He then hits a provisional ball which comes to rest near the hole. In view of the position of the provisional ball, the player does not wish to find his original ball. He does not search for it and walks directly towards his provisional ball to continue play with it. His opponent (or fellow-competitor) believes it would be beneficial to him if the original ball were found. May the opponent (or fellow-competitor) search for the player's ball?

A. Yes. In equity (Rule 1-4), he may search for five minutes provided that in the meantime the player does not play a stroke with the provisional ball, it being nearer the hole than the place where the original ball is likely to be. The player is entitled to play such a stroke. If he does, the original ball is then lost under Rule 27-2b and further search for it would serve no purpose. In match play, if the player so proceeds and his provisional ball is closer to the hole than his opponent's ball, his opponent may recall the stroke (Rule 10-1c). However, recalling the stroke would not change the status of the original ball, which was lost when the provisional ball was played out of turn. See also Decision 27-2c/2 .

[sean_miller]

This is all fine and good if you're in a tournament, but in a "casual" round that's going to be entered for handicap purposes, if I spray one into the woods, I might hit a provisional in case I got a lucky bounce back in play (it happens), If we swing by and I say forget it, I'll go play the provisional, then another player choosing to look for that first ball anyway, when we're not in direct competition , is displaying poor etiquette.

[Dormie1360]

The rules are not ambiguous.  Someone asks a question on the rules, gets an answer, and then these threads occasionally go off on a tangent when we start talking about "tournament' vs "casual" golf.

As far looking or not looking for a ball..........most times finding the original is a better than continuing with the provisional, but not always.  Remember, just because someone has found the original, does not mean you have to play it.  Granted you can not play the provisional, but nothing prevents you from playing another ball from the previous spot which (if hit similarly as the first provisional) in effect gives you the same situation that you wanted.  .Having said that, if someone told me to not look for a ball and we were not competing, I'd not look for it and let him/her play their provisional.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by iacas

I disagree. Convince yourself all you want, but no - two balls are not in play. One ball is in play until such time as one of the conditions for a lost ball (or the ball is determined to be OB) are satisfied the other ball is in play.

It's not considered poor etiquette. You can be DQed for breaches of etiquette and the Rules specifically cover this situation and not only say nothing about etiquette but explicitly state that the opponent can search for your ball:

27-2b/1

Continuation of Play with Provisional Ball Without Searching for Original Ball

Q.At a par-3 hole, a player hits his tee shot into dense woods. He then hits a provisional ball which comes to rest near the hole. In view of the position of the provisional ball, the player does not wish to find his original ball. He does not search for it and walks directly towards his provisional ball to continue play with it. His opponent (or fellow-competitor) believes it would be beneficial to him if the original ball were found. May the opponent (or fellow-competitor) search for the player's ball?

A.Yes. In equity (Rule 1-4), he may search for five minutes provided that in the meantime the player does not play a stroke with the provisional ball, it being nearer the hole than the place where the original ball is likely to be. The player is entitled to play such a stroke. If he does, the original ball is then lost under Rule 27-2b and further search for it would serve no purpose. In match play, if the player so proceeds and his provisional ball is closer to the hole than his opponent's ball, his opponent may recall the stroke (Rule 10-1c). However, recalling the stroke would not change the status of the original ball, which was lost when the provisional ball was played out of turn. See also Decision 27-2c/2.

OK, so the opponent can look for the ball even if the player doesn't want it to be found.

But, the player can just play his second ball a second time (even if its out of turn) to make the original irrelevant.

What happens if opponent finds the original BEFORE the player plays the provisional a second time?  Does he HAVE to go identify it, thus making his provisional is no longer playable?

Follow up question:  Opponent finds it prior to players second stroke with provisional, but then before player goes to identify it, he ignores opponent and then plays the second stroke with the provisional anyway?

These are all seemingly kind of silly questions, however, if I could ever see it coming into play, it would be at the Ryder Cup.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

What happens if opponent finds the original BEFORE the player plays the provisional a second time?  Does he HAVE to go identify it, thus making his provisional is no longer playable?

Follow up question:  Opponent finds it prior to players second stroke with provisional, but then before player goes to identify it, he ignores opponent and then plays the second stroke with the provisional anyway?

These are all seemingly kind of silly questions, however, if I could ever see it coming into play, it would be at the Ryder Cup.

Not silly, but also not difficult to answer.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-27/#d27-2c-2

If a ball likely to be yours is found, you *must* identify it before playing your provisional. There are a bunch of other decisions there that clarify things.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

But, the player can just play his second ball a second time (even if its out of turn) to make the original irrelevant.

If he plays out of turn his opponent may require him to cancel the shot and get him to play again when it is his turn. Rule 10-1c

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

If he plays out of turn his opponent may require him to cancel the shot and get him to play again when it is his turn. Rule 10-1c

Yes, but the damage is already done, because the playing of the shot made that the ball in play, and made the "lost" ball official.  (Per the rule Erik posted and I quoted above)

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

But, the player can just play his second ball a second time (even if its out of turn) to make the original irrelevant.

If he plays out of turn his opponent may require him to cancel the shot and get him to play again when it is his turn. Rule 10-1c

Only in match play.  In stroke play no penalty and no procedure to change the result.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rulesman

If he plays out of turn his opponent may require him to cancel the shot and get him to play again when it is his turn. Rule 10-1c

Yes, but the damage is already done, because the playing of the shot made that the ball in play, and made the "lost" ball official.  (Per the rule Erik posted and I quoted above)

No because in match play, the stroke at the provisional ball is canceled, meaning that it never happened.  The original ball is still the ball in play.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

No because in match play, the stroke at the provisional ball is canceled, meaning that it never happened.  The original ball is still the ball in play.

You didn't read the end of the rule.  Sean re-posted it again just above.

[zeg]

This particular aspect of the rule annoys me. It's the sort of thing that basically never comes up, but I always imagine two golfers in late in a close match.  One "aces" his provisional on a par 3. Both of them look at each other for a second, then drop their clubs and sprint down the course full tilt, one toward the deep rough and the other toward the green in a footrace to decide the outcome of the match.

It's kind of comical, but I can't help but think it's not quite consistent with the genteel image that golf conjures.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

No because in match play, the stroke at the provisional ball is canceled, meaning that it never happened.  The original ball is still the ball in play.

You didn't read the end of the rule.  Sean re-posted it again just above.

Yup... I read too fast.  Doesn't make any sense to me though... if the stroke is cancelled, it's as if it never happened, so I don't see how it can affect the status of the original ball but has no other effect on the player's game or score.  This is the one area of the rules that I still struggle with - what takes precedence in such a situation.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

But, the player can just play his second ball a second time (even if its out of turn) to make the original irrelevant.

Not second time, but closer to hole than the area where original is thought to be.