2012 Ryder Cup Discussion Thread

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by x129

I guess he just can't do 2 foursomes in one day like the old times.....

Great double-entendre :)

[Johnhw2]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

I saw a thread about the Captain's Picks and some discussion about Furyk, but as far as I could remain interested in the thread, it appeared that the discussion ended with the stats showing Furyk was no worse in Ryder Cup play than most other Americans.  Perhaps the debate went much further than that, but like I said I got bored even with the discussion of Furyk.  He should not have been included.  Stricker I am/was fine with.

Hunter Mahan has a winning Ryder Cup record.... so you certainly missed the argument some of us put forth for match play tigers being needed not stroke play champs in good form. Otherwise, Kaymer, Hansen and even Westwood for team Euro wouldnt have won under the intense pressure on Sunday over the fine formed US members. We continue to ignore that fire in the belly, match play tigers are more important than current stroke forum ....

The point that Hunter has a winning RC record and no one on our team did was noticed by even some in the press.and by JMO who was surprised Hunter wasnt picked for our team. Hunter played good at East Lake and tied for low round there with Webb....

[Joakim]

Originally Posted by jimdandy

And lastly, for tonight, how can Davis play Tiger last?

I still don't get that?

Arguably the greatest player ever, one of the great singles match players ever.

You know their best are going early, how can Davis NOT play him top 4???

This could be Davis's biggest mistake, he made tons!

I'm disgusted.

And Couples will be the same exact Captain if he is chosen. No guts, nice guy...

Where are the leaders, with balls!?

Put Tiger as Captain, and you have a guy who cares about nothing, nobody....but winning!

+1,+1,+1,+1+1...

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Joakim

+1,+1,+1,+1+1...

5!!!!!!!!

What do I win?

[Joakim]

Best of the best...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joakim
Seriously, if Britian had all Americans as commentators the whole week leading up to a Ryder in Europe what kind of reaction would your network get?

Originally Posted by Nosevi

Ok, some fair points. Yes, if we had only US commentators I would be surprised, even disappointed.

Originally Posted by Nosevi

Only thing I would've done differently to DL3 would be to throw the first few matches and load the second half of the draw with my form players so they were taking on the weaker European boys.

Ok, some fair points. Yes, if we had only US commentators I would be surprised, even disappointed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnhw2

I agree completely that DL3 is classy, but not sure what that has to do with being a firey leader like we need not another "let the guys decide" manager. The common thread from team Euro players was they wanted to win it for Captain JMO. I didnt hear that from the US team.... more wanted to win for their team mates and for their own pride and records than for the captain....We select RC captains using the good old boy method and failing to use the Presidents cup Captainacy as a good training ground and fail to pick guys that are going to "lead" and motivate the team not manage them!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golf Man

On another point I don't see US players lining up to be captains (maybe with the exception of Couples) - I don't think it matters if they are playing regular tour or not - Olazabal and all his vice captains are all playing regular tour - you need someone who is passionate about the Ryder Cup. We have a pretty good succession planning in place for our captains

2014 - McGinley (vice captain this time, captained at Seve Trophy 3 times, great Ryder Cup player, really well respected)

2016 - Clarke (vice captain twice, major winner, great Ryder Cup experience, will come over well in the US)

2018 - Jiminez/Bjorn (both been vice captains, well respected, good Ryder Cup records - more suited to a home cup, particularly this one as its in France

After that you will probably be into the next generation of Captains - Westwood, possibly Harrington etc

We have a definite trend since teh disaster of 1999 to pick the captains particularly suited to the US (Langer, Faldo, Olazabal) and to Europe (Torrance, Woosnam, Montgomerie)

I don't see this kind of thought and planning going into the US selction

Originally Posted by Nosevi
The only guy I saw that said the US should calm down, thought it would be close and Europe may even clinch it was Jack Nicklaus on British Sky TV who, when Butch Harmen said the US would win "easily", told him he disagreed, we had more stars (more class I think he said) and it would show through in the singles. He said he wanted the US to win, but wasn't sure they were going to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnhw2

Hunter Mahan has a winning Ryder Cup record.... so you certainly missed the argument some of us put forth for match play tigers being needed not stroke play champs in good form. Otherwise, Kaymer, Hansen and even Westwood for team Euro wouldnt have won under the intense pressure on Sunday over the fine formed US members. We continue to ignore that fire in the belly, match play tigers are more important than current stroke forum ....

The point that Hunter has a winning RC record and no one on our team did was noticed by even some in the press.and by JMO who was surprised Hunter wasnt picked for our team. Hunter played good at East Lake and tied for low round there with Webb....

Originally Posted by jimdandy

Quote from Davis Love today:

"I guarantee Tiger Woods didn’t want to sit out. There was a lot of guys on our team that said, ‘Do not take Keegan and Phil out.’ But if you make them go play when they don’t want to play, they’re probably not going to play well.”

That is not a leader or a captain. You think Nicklaus or the like would accept that from a player??

They would say... "you guys are unbeatable, go get some rest, we need you this afternoon." End of story.

We need a captain with GUTS!!

[Joakim]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

5!!!!!!!!

What do I win?

You win a new set of Clubs. In exchane you can give me yours:)

[Joakim]

Originally Posted by Joakim

Because several statements were outright lies.

Also I didn''t like watching the days up to and through the Ryder cup. The guest commentators were all Europe players, Nick Faldo, Colin Montgomery, David Feherety, Frank Nobilo and several other past Euro guests, all biased to Europe.

Originally Posted by Wansteadimp

Frank's a Kiwi - not European. Fehety is now a US citizen.

Reply Quote Multi 0

Reply Quote Multi 0

Symantics... They are still European partisans.

[Joakim]

What if....Shoulda, Woulda, Coulda.... Yes Monday morning but it's a sound managerial decision knowing Europe was front loading their lineup. Start with experience, end with strength. Our inexperience guns would go to sleep with confidence they could beat their pairings. Honestly. I thought that the night before and I was afraid leading off with Bubba but I still thought we would win.Basically DL3's line up just

T. Woods L. Donald vs.
I. Poulter vs. P. Mickelson
R. McIlroy vs. J. Furyk
J. Rose vs. B. Watson
P. Lawrie vs. K. Bradley
N. Colsaerts vs. D. Johnson
G. McDowell vs B. Snedeker .
S. Garcia vs. Z. Johnson
P. Hanson vs. S. Stricker
L. Westwood vs. M. Kuchar
M. Kaymer vs. W. Simpson
F. Molinari vs. J. Dufner

[Joakim]

Originally Posted by Joakim

What if....Shoulda, Woulda, Coulda.... Yes Monday morning Quaterbacking, but it's a sound managerial decision knowing Europe was front loading their lineup. Start with experience, end with strength. Our inexperience guns would go to sleep with confidence they could beat their pairings. Honestly. I thought that the night before and I was afraid leading off with Bubba (He's not a morning person, i.e. Sat morn only loss)  but I still thought we would win.Basically DL3's line up just after you switch the top 3 and hide the player that is struggling, Stricker.

T. Woods

L. Donald vs. (Questionable point, if Luke plays as well as he did, I'm sure he wouldn't be as relaxed) Tie

I. Poulter vs.

P. Mickelson (Questionable point, most likely point to Euro)

R. McIlroy vs.

J. Furyk (Point to Euro, but #1 player gets from one of our weakness)

J. Rose vs.

B. Watson (You got to think Bubba would have played better, definately no early exit) Tie, more like USA point.

P. Lawrie vs.

K. Bradley (Point to USA)

N. Colsaerts vs.

D. Johnson (Point to USA)

G. McDowell vs

B. Snedeker. (Point to USA)

S. Garcia vs.

Z. Johnson (Sergios tough, had better score Point to Euro)

P. Hanson vs.

S. Stricker (Hanson had better round, Point to Euro)

L. Westwood vs.

M. Kuchar (Same matchup, point to Euro)

M. Kaymer vs.

W. Simpson (Taking Web out of 2nd slot helps, Tie)

F. Molinari vs.

J. Dufner (Steady production throughout Ryder, Duff became one of my favorites, point USA)

Final Score 6 1/2 Euro to 5 1/2 USA... And USA wins the cup... Crack open the champagne..

[WWBDD]

Originally Posted by Joakim

Final Score 6 1/2 Euro to 5 1/2 USA... And USA wins the cup... Crack open the champagne..

You're unhinged.

[Joakim]

Originally Posted by WWBDD

You're unhinged.

I was hoping to provide a respite from continuous bashing starting . That's Ok, I can take it and glad I provided a new aspect to the debate on this thread.

However, please provide some reference to where you disagree. Or are you limited to two word insults.

[Joakim]

Originally Posted by WWBDD

You're unhinged.

Hey Jason. I live in high tech Silicon Valley, A lot of hackers out here.

[phan52]

For those who argue that DLove knew what he was doing, I just read a first person article in Sports Illustrated that "illustrates" what a weak Captain he was. It won't be available on the web for a couple of days so I can't post a link. But I'll go through the trouble of copying this:

When we made plans for our Friday and Saturday pairings, we often started sentences with, "In a perfect world". In a perfect world we wanted to play each of the two-man teams we established before we arrived at Medinah three times over the four sessions. Golfers tend to be creatures of habit. We like order. I was trying to provide order.

After three sessions we had a considerable four point lead, with the team of Keegan Bradley and Phil Mickelson winning three times. Fred Couples, one of my four assistants, said to me, "Man, that Keegan Bradley is on fire. Ride him all the way to the house".

In other words, he wanted me to play the Bradley-Mickelson team again on Saturday afternoon. I know a lot of fans and commentators were thinking the same thing. But Phil told me he was tired after three matches and wanted to rest for the Sunday singles. There was no reason to play Keegan with a partner with whom he had not practiced. There was no reason to mess with order.

This tells me that Love did not want the responsibility of being a Captain. He made early decisions and refused to adapt. He pigeonholed his whole team before they ever put a peg in the ground. It's absurd to decide beforehand that you will only play specific two-man teams the whole first two days.

We loved our Sunday lineup. I say WE because this team functioned as a group. I was a players' manager. I listened to to my assistants, the caddies, the wives and most particularly the players. We reached a consensus on every big decision we made.

A good Captain does all these things then tells them all that they may need to adapt if necessary and that "I" may have to make some tough decisions.

He also relates how he was between the 17th green and the 18th tee after Stricker missed the putt on 17, and that he wanted to say something to him but was paralyzed in silence. Good job there, Cap!!

He'll never get another shot, IMO. This will be his legacy.

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by phan52

For those who argue that DLove knew what he was doing, I just read a first person article in Sports Illustrated that "illustrates" what a weak Captain he was. It won't be available on the web for a couple of days so I can't post a link. But I'll go through the trouble of copying this:

When we made plans for our Friday and Saturday pairings, we often started sentences with, "In a perfect world". In a perfect world we wanted to play each of the two-man teams we established before we arrived at Medinah three times over the four sessions. Golfers tend to be creatures of habit. We like order. I was trying to provide order.

After three sessions we had a considerable four point lead, with the team of Keegan Bradley and Phil Mickelson winning three times. Fred Couples, one of my four assistants, said to me, "Man, that Keegan Bradley is on fire. Ride him all the way to the house".

In other words, he wanted me to play the Bradley-Mickelson team again on Saturday afternoon. I know a lot of fans and commentators were thinking the same thing. But Phil told me he was tired after three matches and wanted to rest for the Sunday singles. There was no reason to play Keegan with a partner with whom he had not practiced. There was no reason to mess with order.

This tells me that Love did not want the responsibility of being a Captain. He made early decisions and refused to adapt. He pigeonholed his whole team before they ever put a peg in the ground. It's absurd to decide beforehand that you will only play specific two-man teams the whole first two days.

We loved our Sunday lineup. I say WE because this team functioned as a group. I was a players' manager. I listened to to my assistants, the caddies, the wives and most particularly the players. We reached a consensus on every big decision we made.

A good Captain does all these things then tells them all that they may need to adapt if necessary and that "I" may have to make some tough decisions.

He also relates how he was between the 17th green and the 18th tee after Stricker missed the putt on 17, and that he wanted to say something to him but was paralyzed in silence. Good job there, Cap!!

He'll never get another shot, IMO. This will be his legacy.

Hind sight is 20/20.  If the US team had won... DL3 would be a hero.  Because the US team got whipped on Sunday - he is the scape goat.  Bottom line... The US team choked when the match was on the line.  The European team stepped up and made putts.  We, the US team, withered in a slow and agonizing defeat - DL3 included.

I think the toughest decisions were in the team selection - and who you field for the four captains picks.  DL3's captain's picks were questionable.  And I was wrong about Furyk.  I thought he would step up like he did at the Presidents Cup.  But the guy pissed down his leg earlier in the season, which I thought was an anamoly... But he did it again at the Ryder Cup.  Should DL3 be questioned for picking a guy like him?  Possibly... But again, hind sight is 20/20.

Bottom line... The US needs some heavy hitters to compete with the Europeans.  And hopefully guys like Rickey Fowler, Hunter Mahan, Bud Cauley and others sitting at home... Watching the US team lose in such stunning fashion... I hope this defeat acts as fuel to help those guys take their games to the next level... So that in 2014, when they are called upon to help the US team defeat the Europeans, we are stacked with a full arsenal of competitors that will bring home the cup.

[clubchamp]

Originally Posted by Joakim

Final Score 6 1/2 Euro to 5 1/2 USA... And USA wins the cup... Crack open the champagne..

The U.S. probably gets a 1/2 point in the first 4 matches but losing all 4 would be easy to see. The U.S. wins the next 2 but after that the U.S. is in trouble I just don't see how you think Tiger would make Luke nervous. No one fears Tiger like they used to Molinari proved that by not folding in his match with Tiger. I'm not saying changing line up might have helped but it's hard throw out hypothetical match ups when the U.S. was out played that badly. Plus these guys can all beat each other on any given day and it certainly wasn't Americas day no matter how you make the line ups. I mean if it comes down to the last match and Tiger wins on 18 everyone in here would be praising DL3 for putting Tiger in the pressure situation to win the Ryder Cup. Since that didn't happen he's a terrible captain that should have done everything different.

[Joakim]

Originally Posted by clubchamp

The U.S. probably gets a 1/2 point in the first 4 matches but losing all 4 would be easy to see. The U.S. wins the next 2 but after that the U.S. is in trouble I just don't see how you think Tiger would make Luke nervous. No one fears Tiger like they used to Molinari proved that by not folding in his match with Tiger. I'm not saying changing line up might have helped but it's hard throw out hypothetical match ups when the U.S. was out played that badly. Plus these guys can all beat each other on any given day and it certainly wasn't Americas day no matter how you make the line ups. I mean if it comes down to the last match and Tiger wins on 18 everyone in here would be praising DL3 for putting Tiger in the pressure situation to win the Ryder Cup. Since that didn't happen he's a terrible captain that should have done everything different.

Of course this all hypothetical and who can really say how well (euros) or (USA) would have played with this lineup. For sure I think this line up would have changed the dynamic and dwindled their momentum.

Looking at this I just don't see how we don't get the 4 1/2 points we needed to win. Sir Nick Faldo said the last day of the Ryder is totally different and brings tremendous pressure.  You have to start with experience. Leading Bubba didn't work the first time, the definition of stupidity.

Correct IF he wins he's a king, instead of the biggest collapse in Ryder history. If he can be a King, no one should criticize him for being the goat.

[Joakim]

Sundays with Tiger Woods

What could have been. It definately would have been entertaining.

[Golf Man]

Originally Posted by clubchamp

The U.S. probably gets a 1/2 point in the first 4 matches but losing all 4 would be easy to see. The U.S. wins the next 2 but after that the U.S. is in trouble I just don't see how you think Tiger would make Luke nervous. No one fears Tiger like they used to Molinari proved that by not folding in his match with Tiger. I'm not saying changing line up might have helped but it's hard throw out hypothetical match ups when the U.S. was out played that badly. Plus these guys can all beat each other on any given day and it certainly wasn't Americas day no matter how you make the line ups. I mean if it comes down to the last match and Tiger wins on 18 everyone in here would be praising DL3 for putting Tiger in the pressure situation to win the Ryder Cup. Since that didn't happen he's a terrible captain that should have done everything different

Obviously its all hindsight, but the five best individual performances on Sunday were from the first five Euros - if they had played like that its hard to see Europe losing any (remember that Lawrie was -7 after 15 - no one was going to live with that) If that had played out it would have gone to the wire, Love would have een left with a bottom 4 of Stricker (who was hopelessly out of form), Kuchar (not particularly experienced in Ryder Cup and not exactly a go-to player last week) and two rookies in Simpson and Dufner => Love would have been pillioried for not having any stength and experience when it mattered

On his picks Love said Johnson had the perfect game for Medinah, He wanted some experience so picked Stricker and Furyk and one hot player so went with Snedeker - hard to argue with that arguement

On the future captains its actually difficult to see the next US captains - it will probably be Couples but it seems to me that they need to start thinking down the line - let him 3/4 vice captains who are candidiates for captaincy ineh future - have them involved in the Presidents Cup etc. You need someone who will be respected ut most importantly you need someone who is passionate about the Ryder Cup - I could name a pile of future European captains who have those qualities (McGinley, Clarke, Jiminez, Bjorn, Westwood, Garcia, Poulter) I'd also expect Paul Lawrie to be added to this mix - the guy could hardly speak after his win against Snedeker. The US names don't excatly roll off the tongue