Talk me down (or give me a push)

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by Artimas

Golf is way more than a handicap index, no less the score of a few rounds.

I try to play for enjoyment and the challenge of improving. It can be equally frustrating for high handicappers, just the numbers are different. When we blow up a round, the scores are more like 120.

Forget the numbers and just play the best you can on each and every shot. That's the real challenge.

And if I can give one piece of advice, and it's one of the biggest difference between >20 hc golfers & <15's, it's course management. Single-digit handicappers, generally speaking, don't have blow-up holes. I can't tell you the last time I carded greater than double-bogey on a hole...and even doubles are rare for me.

Why? Because I follow Jack Nicklaus' advice - A bad shot has to be followed up with a smart shot . We all hit bad shots. It's what you do with it next that's key.

It's kinda funny, and ironic, that when a high-handicapper finds themself in a bad spot, let's say a shot from the woods, that they try the heroic shot. But a single-sigit player in the same situation more often than not just punches it back into the fairway. The single-digit basically accepts his shot hit into the woods is likely going to add a stroke to his score, but he makes sure a higher number is taken out of possibility . I actually find myself saying that a lot when I get to a shot in the woods - 'Play for the five, Jer' (if it's a par-4 hole). Swallow your ego.

Often, after I punch back to the fairway, I may have like 125 to the green now, lying two. I can usually put it somewhere on the green from there & I got a decent shot at par, but no worse than a bogey. Meanwhile the high-handicapper is still hacking in the woods lying 5.

Lower handicappers, again generally speaking, understand their games and THE game better. It ain't how, it's how many. Get that ball in the hole in the fewest strokes possible.

[Divotmaker77]

I will try my take at putting it in perspective for the OP.  I would give my big toe if I could be a 5-7 HC.

I was an 11 last year (have not updated my HC on here yet) and have gone up to a 17 this year even though it should be higher.  I got to the point last year where my worst score was an 85 and now I would be thrilled with that score.

My best round this year was an 83 and worst a 105.  Yes, a 105.  I mostly stay in the 93-95 range right now.

Its extremelly frustrating and enough that I am considering dropping my membership.  I put a lot of time in on the range and was playing 3-4 times a week and it never got any better.  I changed instructors which at this point I do not think has helped at all.

Its just difficult to know that you should be playing much better but everytime its just blows up. Drive the ball good all day yet miss chips or 3 putt,  Vice versa.

I do a lot of video and I know what my problems are but trying to fix them and take it to the course has been impossible to do.

So, I share in your misery and hope the light comes back on sooner than later.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

And if I can give one piece of advice, and it's one of the biggest difference between >20 hc golfers & <15's, it's course management. Single-digit handicappers, generally speaking, don't have blow-up holes. I can't tell you the last time I carded greater than double-bogey on a hole...and even doubles are rare for me.

Why? Because I follow Jack Nicklaus' advice - A bad shot has to be followed up with a smart shot. We all hit bad shots. It's what you do with it next that's key.

It's kinda funny, and ironic, that when a high-handicapper finds themself in a bad spot, let's say a shot from the woods, that they try the heroic shot. But a single-sigit player in the same situation more often than not just punches it back into the fairway. The single-digit basically accepts his shot hit into the woods is likely going to add a stroke to his score, but he makes sure a higher number is taken out of possibility. I actually find myself saying that a lot when I get to a shot in the woods - 'Play for the five, Jer' (if it's a par-4 hole). Swallow your ego.

Often, after I punch back to the fairway, I may have like 125 to the green now, lying two. I can usually put it somewhere on the green from there & I got a decent shot at par, but no worse than a bogey. Meanwhile the high-handicapper is still hacking in the woods lying 5.

Lower handicappers, again generally speaking, understand their games and THE game better. It ain't how, it's how many. Get that ball in the hole in the fewest strokes possible.

While I agree with you in theory, there is one other issue that may influence the high capper into trying that hero shot.  That's the real possibility that he won't hit the ball much better from the fairway after the punch out than he would trying the hero shot.  And there's no guarantee that he'll even hit the fairway with the punch.  He generally has poor distance judgement on less than full shots, and rarely makes solid contact with the ball even from a good lie, let alone a poor lie in the woods.  The funny thing about a player with a weak swing, he expects the worst from a good lie because it happens so frequently, yet he sees himself as making the miraculous save from a nearly impossible lie.  Strange as it sounds there is actually some justification for that feeling.

I'm a wholehearted advocate of developing good course management skills, but I find more value in using those skills to help keep me out of trouble in the first place.

Originally Posted by Divotmaker77

I will try my take at putting it in perspective for the OP.  I would give my big toe if I could be a 5-7 HC.

I was an 11 last year (have not updated my HC on here yet) and have gone up to a 17 this year even though it should be higher.  I got to the point last year where my worst score was an 85 and now I would be thrilled with that score.

My best round this year was an 83 and worst a 105.  Yes, a 105.  I mostly stay in the 93-95 range right now.

Its extremelly frustrating and enough that I am considering dropping my membership.  I put a lot of time in on the range and was playing 3-4 times a week and it never got any better.  I changed instructors which at this point I do not think has helped at all.

Its just difficult to know that you should be playing much better but everytime its just blows up. Drive the ball good all day yet miss chips or 3 putt,  Vice versa.

I do a lot of video and I know what my problems are but trying to fix them and take it to the course has been impossible to do.

So, I share in your misery and hope the light comes back on sooner than later.

Have you considered that you may be suffering from a classic case of "paralysis by analysis"?  I realize how difficult it is, but sometimes you just have find a way to turn off your brain and let the muscles take over.  I find that when I get into one of those modes when I'm overthinking, I just turn it all off.  I take my usual approach with my preshot routine, but when I address the ball, I make the swing immediately.  I don't give myself time to think  about a swing thought or anything else.  I just take the club back and let loose.  Most of the time I find it beneficial.

[mdl]

Don't keep score for a while.  This only works for some people, as a lot of guys can tell you every single shot they took that round even at dinner that night.  I can barely remember 5 holes ago myself.  So if I'm not keeping score and actively don't try to remember my +/- vs. par, I have only a vague idea of how I'm scoring by the end of the front 9.

When I have a buddy with me who will keep score and not tell me how I'm doing, I play MUCH better and it's much more fun, cause I'm just out there dueling with the course and enjoying my good shots instead of obsessing about how I need to go -X over the next Y holes to not have such an embarrassing score or whatever.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

While I agree with you in theory, there is one other issue that may influence the high capper into trying that hero shot.  That's the real possibility that he won't hit the ball much better from the fairway after the punch out than he would trying the hero shot.  And there's no guarantee that he'll even hit the fairway with the punch.  He generally has poor distance judgement on less than full shots, and rarely makes solid contact with the ball even from a good lie, let alone a poor lie in the woods.  The funny thing about a player with a weak swing, he expects the worst from a good lie because it happens so frequently, yet he sees himself as making the miraculous save from a nearly impossible lie.  Strange as it sounds there is actually some justification for that feeling.

I'm a wholehearted advocate of developing good course management skills, but I find more value in using those skills to help keep me out of trouble in the first place.

That's like insanely brilliant. It's the mindset of 'Since I suck & will probably mis-hit the shot anyway, I might as well try to be a hero.'

My much-criticized yet works for me four-step improvement goes like this -

To break 100, learn to putt. To break 90, learn to chip. To break 80, learn course management. To break 70, play tournaments.

So I may be getting poor golfers ahead of themselves by talking about course management (the 'break 80' task) if they're not yet breaking 100.

[MSchott]

Here's how I look at the game. I'm not talented enough to get into single digits for a handicap without quitting my job and taking intense lessons which is never going to happen. I play because I love the game and love shot values. Instead of hitting a high wedge into a green knock down a 9 iron. Play a round with a wedge, 3 wood, putter and 5 iron. Being creative is great fun. I've gotten away from playing a full sand wedge into a green on an 80 yard shot in favor of playing a pitching wedge back in my stance and knocking it down into the green. Enjoy the game and have fun!

Another idea when playing with your buddies is to pair off and have a match play game. You don't have to worry about score, just making the right shot as needed.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

To break 100, learn to putt. To break 90, learn to chip. To break 80, learn course management. To break 70, play tournaments.

I've heard this before, and I've never understood it.  I needed to learn a whole lot more than chipping to break 90.  When you are over 100, you still don't five putt, so I don't understand why improving putting would help this.

Quote:

Don't keep score for a while.

I think he needs to do the opposite.  Instead of keeping score, chart where you are losing strokes.  I'm willing to bet if you are "practicing all the time but never improving" you arn't practicing what is making you shoot high.  Keep track of the fairways hit, GIRs, putts, short game, etc... I am willing to bet something will jump out as weak.  Practice that and leave the rest alone.

Quote:

While I agree with you in theory, there is one other issue that may influence the high capper into trying that hero shot. That's the real possibility that he won't hit the ball much better from the fairway after the punch out than he would trying the hero shot. And there's no guarantee that he'll even hit the fairway with the punch. He generally has poor distance judgement on less than full shots, and rarely makes solid contact with the ball even from a good lie, let alone a poor lie in the woods. The funny thing about a player with a weak swing, he expects the worst from a good lie because it happens so frequently, yet he sees himself as making the miraculous save from a nearly impossible lie. Strange as it sounds there is actually some justification for that feeling.

I agree with this as well.  Course management only gets you so far.  The shot from 125 in the fairway is a guarenteed bogey *to you* because you're good.  To a duffer, 125 in the fairway is no guarentee of anything.

To the OP: Keep at it.  Chart your rounds so you know where you are weak.  Golf improvement is a little bit every day.  I shot a 97 about a month ago.  It happens.  If you can't have fun without shooting a good score, you need to improve your mental game.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by MSchott

Here's how I look at the game. I'm not talented enough to get into single digits for a handicap without quitting my job and taking intense lessons which is never going to happen. I play because I love the game and love shot values. Instead of hitting a high wedge into a green knock down a 9 iron. Play a round with a wedge, 3 wood, putter and 5 iron. Being creative is great fun. I've gotten away from playing a full sand wedge into a green on an 80 yard shot in favor of playing a pitching wedge back in my stance and knocking it down into the green. Enjoy the game and have fun!

Another idea when playing with your buddies is to pair off and have a match play game. You don't have to worry about score, just making the right shot as needed.

I think that you and I would have a blast together.  We have a very similar approach to the game.  One of my best memories is from a buddy and I playing a match on the Executive 9 of my home course complex, middle of winter in Colorado, and we were the only ones on the course.  We each took 4 clubs, 2 balls, and left our bags and all of the other paraphernalia in the car.  We had an absolute blast that day.  We went around twice for the 9 hole price, and it was some of the best golf fun I can remember.

Don't get locked into playing by the club - learn to play by the shot.  Leave half of your bag at home and try it with just 7 or 8 clubs.  It can completely change your mindset, and you just might learn something about shotmaking too.  It's the best way I know of to practice hitting those between club shots while on the course and trying to score.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

Quote:

I've heard this before, and I've never understood it.  I needed to learn a whole lot more than chipping to break 90.  When you are over 100, you still don't five putt, so I don't understand why improving putting would help this.

I agree with this as well.  Course management only gets you so far.  The shot from 125 in the fairway is a guarenteed bogey *to you* because you're good.  To a duffer, 125 in the fairway is no guarentee of anything.

Well, if you read further, you would see that course management is really only effective if you have some grasp on placing the ball somewhere near where you're aiming. It's hard to manage the course when your swing is unmanageable. That's why in my little theorem on improvement, course management will help you get from the 80s to the 70s.

Yes I know many take exception to the simplicity of my theorem. Surely the game must be harder. Well, it's as hard as you want to make it. But to me, the game is played from the hole backwards, and the importance of the game diminishes the further you get from the hole. Meaning, putting well is not only easily practiced, it's the quickest way to lower your score. Next is chipping. So if you can get to the point of getting up & down, say a third of the time, guess what. No blowup holes.

Feel free to disagree. Many have. But good putters aren't bad golfers.

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Well, if you read further, you would see that course management is really only effective if you have some grasp on placing the ball somewhere near where you're aiming. It's hard to manage the course when your swing is unmanageable. That's why in my little theorem on improvement, course management will help you get from the 80s to the 70s.

Yes I know many take exception to the simplicity of my theorem. Surely the game must be harder. Well, it's as hard as you want to make it. But to me, the game is played from the hole backwards, and the importance of the game diminishes the further you get from the hole. Meaning, putting well is not only easily practiced, it's the quickest way to lower your score. Next is chipping. So if you can get to the point of getting up & down, say a third of the time, guess what. No blowup holes.

Feel free to disagree. Many have. But good putters aren't bad golfers.

And most top architects find green sites first and build a hole from there. All strategies start with the green. Consider the famous 10th at Riviera. It's narrow if approached from a driver hit to the left side of the fairway but deep if you take an iron off the tee (but narrow). There are also strategic bunkers that make you think about placement. 18 on the same course has an elevated green with a hill left. You need to have the right angle coming in and this angle also depends on the pin position.

[Lihu]

A 7 handicap is really good. Period. Take some time off, do something else for a bit. The pro at a local shop shot a 95 on my neighborhood course. He typically can hit 75 on a much higher rated course. I asked him how? He said he was just not with it that day. I guess it happens, to everyone. Try a book called "Breaking the slump" by Jimmy Roberts.

[Desert Driver]

Originally Posted by Jason M Henley

I feel like I need to almost forget about handicap and just play. Have fun and try to win some cash from my friends. Its either that or quit completely. I'm an all or nothing guy so is it possible for me to play the game purely for fun? I kind of feel like if I can just shoot 85 or better 90% of the time then that will be pretty damn good.

Anybody else ever face this moment? Serious as hell but then realize that your spinning your wheels and then find a happy place?

Jason,

I think you nailed it - "I feel like I need to almost forget about handicap and just play."  I think a lot of golfers have faced that moment when frustration fills you up. Most aren't at your same handicap, but expectations for all golfers can be very high and when we aren't improving or the handicap takes a hit, it feels like the golf world is upside down.

I was talking to a friend about golf woes and such and he asked me, "Isn't golf supposed to be fun?" I was upset because my handicap was headed north and didn't look like it was going to stop, I was hitting the ball all over the place. And my scores were awful.

My problem? I wanted to use clubs that were above my skill level to use consistently and I was so focused on SCORE, SCORE, SCORE, that I wasn't focused on the shot that was right in front of me.

I took care of my equipment issues, that was the easy part. The hard part for me? Stop keeping score out on the course. Quit looking at the scorecard and don't worry about my handicap. I wanted to play good golf and a handicap is a reflection of that, it isn't the ultimate goal.

In the last year and change, my handicap has dropped over 6 stokes. I have been sitting at or just below 10 for the last couple months, I am playing better than ever and I am having more fun out on the course. I still will throw up an embarassing score once in a while, but that happens. I try to focus on making my next shot a great one. Whatever happens, happens, walk up to the ball and make the next shot a great one.

Best of luck and make your next shot a great one.

DD

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

Yes I know many take exception to the simplicity of my theorem. Surely the game must be harder. Well, it's as hard as you want to make it. But to me, the game is played from the hole backwards, and the importance of the game diminishes the further you get from the hole. Meaning, putting well is not only easily practiced, it's the quickest way to lower your score.

Right, but that isn't what you said.  Putting may be the quickest way to lower your score.  You didn't say that.  You said if you want to break 100, practice your putting.  I think that is bad advice.  Putting has a natural cap the full swing doesn't.  No matter how bad you are, people very rarely more than 3 putt, and almost never 4 putt.  However, in the context of a typical par 4, you have two shots on the green and two putts.  Putting makes up an equal amount of "par" strokes on a par 72 - if you two putt every green, you have 36 putts.  However, the long shots are certainly not capped.  I have heard people say to break 100 practice your putting but unless you are five putting every hole that makes no sense at all.

Quote:

Feel free to disagree. Many have. But good putters aren't bad golfers.

Why do you say that?  There are many, many people who do very well at the World Putting Championships and do not even play the full game.  A guy made it to the quarterfinals putting with his feet (you can read about all this in the pelz book).  Seems like he'd be a bad golfer.  Putting is the only part of the game where PGA Tour pros are demonstrably not the best in the world - many people are better than the pros at putting, as detailed by Pelz.

Putting is important.  But practicing putting when you are shooting 105 is nuts.  Breaking 100 is all about avoiding wasted shots, whether it be fat shots, OOB shots, water shots, etc... If you don't waste shots it is not hard to break 100 even if you only hit PW all day.  Putting would be 5th or 6th on my list for a >100 shooter to improve.

[wadesworld]

Quote:

It's kinda funny, and ironic, that when a high-handicapper finds themself in a bad spot, let's say a shot from the woods, that they try the heroic shot. But a single-sigit player in the same situation more often than not just punches it back into the fairway.

While this is certainly true, I think the answer is larger than that.

As a higher-handicapper who is on the verge of a breakthrough, I can tell you my problem is consistency.  You might play it smart and punch out to the fairway, but when you thin your 8-iron over the back of the green and then chip to 30 feet away and three-putt, you're still playing like a high-handicapper.

To shoot in the 80's (or lower) consistently, you've got to have all parts of your game to a reasonable level of competence.  You've got to be decent off the tee to avoid getting in trouble.  You've got to be decent on approach shots to avoid tough chips.  You've got to be decent on chips for when you do miss the green, and you've got to be decent at putting to avoid a bunch of 3-putts.

Most high handicappers are not consistent enough in any area of the game.  They'll be at 80-yards after a good drive and good second shot on a par 5.  Then they'll thin their wedge over the back into a bush and end up with a triple.  Then rather than it being "just one hole," on the next hole they'll yank their drive OB, ensuring a double on that hole.  Then on the next par 4, they'll be in the rough just right of the green in 2, flub the chip and 3-putt for another double.

I certainly agree that one should avoid hero shots as a high-handicapper.  But the main thing a high-handicapper has to do is just work on more consistency in all parts of their game.  You don't have to be stellar, just consistent.  The thing I'm trying to do is play high-percentage golf.  I NEVER go for the pin outside of 50 yards.  I'm simply not good enough to play a shot where half the margin of error is off the green.  Fat part of the green all the way.  Same thing on chips - if I have to make a perfect chip because of the pin position and I'm nervous about it, I simply aim away from the pin a bit, make sure I hit the green and then do no worse than 2-putt.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

Right, but that isn't what you said.  Putting may be the quickest way to lower your score.  You didn't say that.  You said if you want to break 100, practice your putting.  I think that is bad advice.  Putting has a natural cap the full swing doesn't.  No matter how bad you are, people very rarely more than 3 putt, and almost never 4 putt.  However, in the context of a typical par 4, you have two shots on the green and two putts.  Putting makes up an equal amount of "par" strokes on a par 72 - if you two putt every green, you have 36 putts.  However, the long shots are certainly not capped.  I have heard people say to break 100 practice your putting but unless you are five putting every hole that makes no sense at all.

Why do you say that?  There are many, many people who do very well at the World Putting Championships and do not even play the full game.  A guy made it to the quarterfinals putting with his feet (you can read about all this in the pelz book).  Seems like he'd be a bad golfer.  Putting is the only part of the game where PGA Tour pros are demonstrably not the best in the world - many people are better than the pros at putting, as detailed by Pelz.

Putting is important.  But practicing putting when you are shooting 105 is nuts.  Breaking 100 is all about avoiding wasted shots, whether it be fat shots, OOB shots, water shots, etc... If you don't waste shots it is not hard to break 100 even if you only hit PW all day.  Putting would be 5th or 6th on my list for a >100 shooter to improve.

Well first off, feel free to disagree. Many have.

Secondly, I really don't want to hijack the thread.

But I'll say this much. Where are most of the strokes in the game made? So you talk about 'caps' on putting that the full swing doesn't have, I would contend the 'cap' on the full swing is much lower than putting. Learning to putt is the fastest way to lower your score. And here's the wisdom behind the numbers, cuz you're too focused on the numbers -

If you're a good putter you'll be more confident. That confidence radiates backwards. in other words, you'll be more confident on your chipping...then your short irons, then the woods & so on.

I'm not going to debate the numbers, just gonna state the undeniable fact that the most strokes in a round are taken with one club. Learn that one club.

[Divotmaker77]

I'll mix in my game problems with what has been said in the last few posts.

Putting wise, I usually putt from 32-35 a round. More times than not that includes at least 1 3putt every round.

Where I get myself into trouble which greatly effects my putting is my chipping.  Its hard to leave yourself 8 feet short on a chip and expect to hole a putt all of the time.  Also, I have noticed that when I am striking the ball well my putting is always better and when it is not I tend to putt bad.

I also am very inconsistent with my driver.  I will hit 5 great shots and then that one bad one that costs me 2-3 strokes on that one hole and the avalanch starts.

I play with pretty good players and everyone of them say my tempo is the biggest problem.  I will be fine for awhile and then for whatever reason I get too quick with my backswing, etc.  everything just gets too quick for me.  I have yet to figure out how to get over that hurdle.  Someone told me yoga would help.

I will say that I did play with some buddies in a friendly wager game of cart play a few months ago and besides a weak start I played par golf the last 12 holes.   There is a lot of truth into the thinking that not keeping track of your score instead of watching it like a hawk after every hole does help.  I seem to always play my best when I am in a friendly competition between teams and not stroke play type of things.  I have always sucked in tournaments.  My best round is a 77 and I never looked at the scorecard until I was done with the round.  I knew I played well but did not realize how well until I saw the score.

I am aware of my issues.  I am very inconsistent, think way too much on the course, am way too hard on myself, and frankly was not born with natural golf talent.  I am very competitive and excelled in basketball and I think it is very tough for me to come to grips that maybe I am simply just not going to be a good golfer (my definition of that is a 5-8 HC) and I try too hard to become one which when it is all said and done is what is causing me to not become a good golfer (if that makes sense).

My wife tells me I need a shrink about my golf game.  I had to laugh when she said that.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Well first off, feel free to disagree. Many have.

Secondly, I really don't want to hijack the thread.

But I'll say this much. Where are most of the strokes in the game made? So you talk about 'caps' on putting that the full swing doesn't have, I would contend the 'cap' on the full swing is much lower than putting. Learning to putt is the fastest way to lower your score. And here's the wisdom behind the numbers, cuz you're too focused on the numbers -

If you're a good putter you'll be more confident. That confidence radiates backwards. in other words, you'll be more confident on your chipping...then your short irons, then the woods & so on.

I'm not going to debate the numbers, just gonna state the undeniable fact that the most strokes in a round are taken with one club. Learn that one club.

I'm with John on this one.   My dad is a typical 100 shooter, for example (with a 21 HDCP, go figure ) and he is what I would call a horrible putter.  Probably 36-40 putts per round.  Which means he has 60-64 non-putts per round on average to get to 100.

A typical 70 shooter probably averages around 27 putts per round, right?  That means that he makes 43 non-putts per round.  So, at best, to go from a horrible putter to an outstanding putter you are only talking about 11-ish strokes saved, whereas on the full shots, you're talking around a 20 stroke difference.

[Pablo68]

Poor attitude is why I took a 5 year break from the game. I felt like I was wasting my money (I'm pretty frugal) if I was not getting better. My attitude sucked and there were times I walked off after a couple bad holes thinking 'well, there goes that round'. It's something I still struggle with a little since I got back to the game in May.

First and foremost; enjoy yourself. What are the chances you'll ever do this for a living? Probably slim and none so lower your expectations, give yourself some credit for being a single digit handicap and work on having fun. Walking away from a hobby you enjoy because you're not meeting your expectations is wrong. That's not to say stop working on your game but just be realistic about it. That and go get some lessons to build a repeatable swing. That's my plan. I'm 44 and playing the best golf of my life but inconsistency makes me realize I need to spend a little money on lessons to enjoy myself even more.

Good luck guy; don't walk away though.