2013 WGC-Cadillac Championship at Doral Discussion Thread

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Shallow AoA, picking it would "expose" or utilize the bounce the most.  Hands more forward, more leading edge.

Correct never a need for low bounce.  Bounce doesn't actually "bounce" off the ground, just helps the club glide through the turf.  Makes sure the club doesn't "stick" in the ground.  Bounce is very beneficial off tight lies, like that video of me hitting off the putting green.  Like Phil said he hit behind the ball.  Can see that with the pics below.  And you can obviously use the bounce with a square face.  The cart path shot really isn't that hard shot in terms of hitting it solid, kind of like hitting off a lie board.

Here's the video

LOL, I thought of you guys (Erik and Mike) when I watched Phil hitting this shot. I even started to explain how bounce works to the guy sitting next to me in the Pub. He wasn't impressed , it's tough being the only rabid golf nut I know.

[nevets88]

Quote:

Shallow AoA, picking it would "expose" or utilize the bounce the most.  Hands more forward, more leading edge.

So even though PM says he's using the leading edge, in actuality, he is using the bounce?

How much bounce does his SW have? 12 degrees?

Why didn't he opt for the drop? The lie would give him less spin?

[Wansteadimp]

Originally Posted by clutchshot

Rory is another favorite of mine, but I must admit, this is not the Rory we saw last year.

This is the Rory we saw between his Honda win last year and the British Open.

[Ernest Jones]

This is the Rory we saw between his Honda win last year and the British Open.

+1 after 18 is huge improvement over +7 after 9. I think a tournament with no cut is a great thing for Rory right now, looking forward to seeing which direction his game goes over the next 3 rounds.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nevets88

Quote:

Shallow AoA, picking it would "expose" or utilize the bounce the most.  Hands more forward, more leading edge.

So even though PM says he's using the leading edge, in actuality, he is using the bounce?

How much bounce does his SW have? 12 degrees?

Why didn't he opt for the drop? The lie would give him less spin?

By hitting off the pavement he eliminated any possible variables.  It's actually an easy shot, one I've done several time over the years, both from concrete and from packed clay and gravel.  Taking relief isn't always desirable - sometimes the relief drop area can leave a difficult or unplayable lie.

[rehmwa]

Originally Posted by nevets88

So even though PM says he's using the leading edge, in actuality, he is using the bounce?

How much bounce does his SW have? 12 degrees?

Why didn't he opt for the drop? The lie would give him less spin?

Someone more knowledgable correct me here, But you can 'leverage' more or less of the existing 'bounce' in a wedge design by opening or closing the face to bring that curvy base of the club into play more or less.  The 'angle' that defines bounce might be constant, but shape of the bottom of that club head brings it more or less into play by allowing the face angle to decide low point of the club during the swing.  Open the face - that take the low point back further from the LE and the moved contact point will bring the LE up a bit.  Close it, that LE is closer to earth.  I think that's what he's talking about, the tightness of the LE to the pavement, not just the built in angle of the LE at the vertex.

So - you're right, a SW with 12 degrees bounce is 12 with an open face or a closed face.  It's not like a wedge is built concave on the bottom with a knife edge.  he notes that he kept the face square - on purpose to tone the bounce contribution down - it's not like he's trying to avoid taking an early divot or anything - he doesn't need or want to apply the feature on this type of lie.

I think when guys say they are using more or less bounce in a club, they aren't talking about the physical dimension, they are just talking about opening and closing the face to emphasize or de-emphasize the impact of the feature (to keep a club from snagging into the surface)

I'd say you are right that some bounce is in play no matter how he sets up, but his point was to keep the LE closer to pavement through to contact by minimizing bounce.  Thus the more close face angle vs what he'd normally have from off of a path.  (he admits it's more likely to hit path slightly early).

You have to admit, it's a perfect lie.  Why drop when he has this shot in his bag? - clearly it was not a big deal at all to him.

I recall another guy taking drops until he stayed on the path.  Then hit a great fairway wood to the green.  he just wanted the better lie (in his mind).

I really enjoyed the lesson in that video.

Edit:  HA - went back read page 4.  mvmac did a much more succinct discussion of what I was trying to note.  and also noted that face angle isn't the only way to de-emphasize the bounce, hand forward too....  and he actually knows this stuff while I'm just faking

[rehmwa]

Originally Posted by mvmac  The cart path shot really isn't that hard shot in terms of hitting it solid, kind of like hitting off a lie board.

it's also like hitting off a crappy mats at the range?

though it would be cool, to see someone take a divot from the cart path.....maybe Bubba or Daly someday

[Deryck Griffith]

Originally Posted by Chas

As Chamblee pointed out on TGC, Rory was uncharacteristically making many practice swings or part swings before the full stroke. But at least for the tee shot they showed in slowmo, his actual backswing in the completed stroke did not recapitulate his practice backswing, not even close.

I can relate to that.

I can relate to.....Feel isn't real

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by nevets88

So even though PM says he's using the leading edge, in actuality, he is using the bounce?

How much bounce does his SW have? 12 degrees?

Why didn't he opt for the drop? The lie would give him less spin?

I don't think he used bounce on the shot.  He used the leading edge - hit a quarter of an inch behind the ball... Which made the initial mark on the cart path.  And while the club was traveling at a shallow angle of approach, the bounce - or trail end of the club made an impact mark on the concrete as well.

The only thing the bounce did on this shot was make the second impact mark as that trail edge 'scuffed' the surface at impact.

Carry-on.

Hopefully we can talk about the tournament and not how bounce is the holy grail here?

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Shallow AoA, picking it would "expose" or utilize the bounce the most.  Hands more forward, more leading edge.

Exactly - which is what Phil did.  Hands were forward.  Leading edge was used.  But he has to use a shallow angle of attack (or approach) to 'pick' the ball from the path (or lie board - or shitty driving range mat).  You don't want a steep angle of attack - as you will likely bounce the club off the surface behind the ball and then skull it.

Phil actually hit the ground behind the ball - but his AoA was shallow enough that the miscalculation didn't cause him to skull it.

[bplewis24]

Hey guys, anybody see that pitch shot of Phil's off the cart path?  Can you guys explain to me what happened there?!?

Just kidding

Any predictions for Rory the rest of the week(end)?  I'm thinking he won't contend, but at some point Saturday or Sunday a light switch is going to go on.

[Beachcomber]

FFS!! Lol I think Rors needs to get comfortable with his new putter. And once that happens. He will be back.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Any predictions for Rory the rest of the week(end)?  I'm thinking he won't contend, but at some point Saturday or Sunday a light switch is going to go on.

I agree. I think a tourney with no cut is gonna be great for Rory. Eagle on his first probably helped his brain a little too, or at least took the sting out of the 3 consecutive bogeys that followed....

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

I don't think he used bounce on the shot.

Yes he did. Look at when he soled the wedge. The leading edge was off the ground.

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

Hands were forward. Leading edge was used.

Not enough to negate the bounce, Beach.

The two little divots were from:
a) a point below the leading edge towards the front of the wedge's cambered sole hitting the ground

b) the trailing edge of the bounce again nicking the ground because impact with the ball deflected it downward slightly

Look at the swing he made, his follow-through, etc. He wasn't leaning the shaft forward 12+ degrees.

Shawn, dude, get to the 5SK school with the short game clinic.

[Chas]

Bounce flounce guys ..... I'm just psyched for today's play. That leader board is more stacked that you-know-who's you-know what!

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by iacas

Shawn, dude, get to the 5SK school with the short game clinic.

It's on the long list of things I need to do... But not sure if I can attend the upcoming one or not?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by iacas

Yes he did. Look at when he soled the wedge. The leading edge was off the ground.

Not enough to negate the bounce, Beach.

The two little divots were from:

a) a point below the leading edge towards the front of the wedge's cambered sole hitting the ground

b) the trailing edge of the bounce again nicking the ground because impact with the ball deflected it downward slightly

Look at the swing he made, his follow-through, etc. He wasn't leaning the shaft forward 12+ degrees.

Shawn, dude, get to the 5SK school with the short game clinic.

[RonTheSavage]

Did Charles Howell's ball go into the water after hitting the flag on the fly on a Par 3?