Bubba Watson Gets Involved in the Gay Professional Athlete Debate

[minitour]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasonbolt

I find it funny that a lot of you are commenting on how it's wrong for Bubba to "judge" gays, but you are judging Bubba for agreeing with Chris.  Ironic much?

As a side note, I don't think Bubba's tweet was meant to judge Jason Collins.

this is the only point I take from religious arguments.

People judge Christians for expressing their beliefs by saying that the Christian is judging others.  Pot, meet Kettle.

Christians are supposed to "accept" gay people but Christians are then condemned for their beliefs.  Wheres the turn-about?

Well if you're saying "non Christians" are judging Christians, that's okay. The "non Christians" don't have a bible (that they parade around with and hide behind) telling them to love each other and not judge (that's for someone else to do) people. Says me (a Christian).

[mtsalmela80]

Originally Posted by minitour

Well if you're saying "non Christians" are judging Christians, that's okay. The "non Christians" don't have a bible (that they parade around with and hide behind) telling them to love each other and not judge (that's for someone else to do) people.

Says me (a Christian).

You may have been born into a Christian family but don't you date sit there and try to claim you are a practicing Christian while bashing it.

There is nothing wrong with leaning on faith a little. Faith is a good thing when done right.

[Rick Martin]

Other than Brian Gay

I wonder if the PGA Tour has any gay golfers, past or present.

[Wansteadimp]

Originally Posted by Jasonbolt

Out of curiosity, what is ignored?

http://bible.cc/exodus/35-2.htm

Working on the Sabbath and the punishment that the bible suggests for a start.

[Zeph]

Out of curiosity, what is ignored?

http://www.evilbible.com/christians_are_hypocrites.htm A few examples: [QUOTE]7) Here is perhaps the mother of verses ignored: “Judge not, that ye be not judged” (Matthew 7:1) and “Judge not, and ye shall not be judged, condemn not and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven” (Luke 6:37).[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]8) Believers are supposed to hate their parents when they follow Jesus ( “If any man come to me, and not hate his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sister, yet, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple” (Luke 14:26).[/QUOTE]

[14ledo81]

I was not going to post anymore in this thread because I don't believe anybody "wins" a religious argument.  I will, however, try to answer some of the questions that have been directed at me.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I have, shall we politely say, a differing opinion. ;)  However this part of your post in particular REALLY doesn't compute with me.  Let's assume for the sake of this argument that you are Christian.  If you are referring to only gay people who claim to be Christian, then fine.  Totally disagree, but whatever, that is fine.  Your opinion is logical.  (Wrong, but logical) ;)

But you didn't say that.  You generalized gays, implying ALL gays, which in turn means Jewish gays, Muslim gays, Atheist gays, Agnostic gays, Buddhist gays, etc, etc, etc, you get my point.  And I think you know where I am going with this?  Why should anybody else (non Christians), gay or otherwise, care what YOUR God thinks?

Reminds me of a woman I used to work with.  She had a license plate on her car that said (in shorthand obviously) "I love our God."  I didn't care much for her anyway, because she was not a nice person, and a horrible employee, so that definitely added to the disdain.  But, regardless, every time I saw that license plate, I wanted to punch that lady in the face.  Who the f**k are you to tell me who MY god is??

And, breathe .... OK, sorry, rant over.  (It's your fault for reminding me of that lady!) ;)

I can't change how anyone believes, but I do believe the same God that made me, made you, and everybody else.

If we ever meet, please don't punch me in the face.  I have seen your my swing thread, and you are much bigger than me.  I would not stand a chance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamo

I'm genuinely trying to summarize your sentiments here. Your beliefs are such that you do not like openly gay people because you believe that if that becomes acceptable, people who are close to might also become openly gay? Do I have that correct?

Thanks for keeping it civil.

I hope I did not imply that I did not like the person.  I only believe the "sin" is wrong.

To answer your other question, yes I do believe that the more society "oks" homosexuality, the more prevalent it will become.  I don't have the actual stats, but divorce rates have risen steadily.  I would also be willing to bet that people taking part in premarital sex has risen as well.  Both of those (divorce and premarital sex) were once shunned by the majority (not just christians) of society.

Originally Posted by Wisguy

Some points:

1)  "God is an invisible friend for adults."  - Morgan Freeman, The Big Bounce.  Prove this statement is wrong.  What's that?  You can't do it, can you?

2)  "fight against this temptation"???  You seem to be rather ignorant  of how human sexuality works.  It's a matter of preference for most people - they simple do or don't find one gender attractive.  You think it's better for someone to live a lie - spend half their waking life or more trying to suppress who they genuinely are for the sake of irrational hate-filled dogma spewed by some primitive Bronze Age demagogue thousands of years ago?  Does that really make sense to you?    But since you speak of temptation, I suspect that this is a temptation that you yourself must feel.  I strongly believe that most outspoken homophobes are actually trying to suppress the guilt they feel about their own inclinations.  The biggest homophobe I knew in college, a self-proclaimed righteous Christian, came out of the closet in grad school.

3)  Premarital sex is a sin, same as homosexuality.  But premarital sex is a sin that the overwhelming majority of people in our society commit - I'd guess maybe 1-in-8 or an even lower percentage of those who live in America (and probably most other Western cultures) end up virgins on their wedding night.  Yet I don't see you or any other religious homophobe complaining about all those Damn Fornicators!  Certainly the majority of all religious homophobes themselves engaged in premarital sex.   I'd say this is rather extreme hypocrisy.

I will try to keep my answer civil.

2) I bolded the word preference.  I am fairly certain the correct word would be orientation.  Preference would imply that they have a choice.

I do believe it is somthing they should try to suppress.  Remember my personal belief is that it is a sin.  Similar to all manner of sin, it needs to be fought against.  I would not suggest someone born with the temptation to steal or someone born with an attraction to animals succumb to there desires.

3) I do believe that premarital sex is a sin.

I was raised to "hate the sin, not the person."

[Fourputt]

To all concerned:  Trying to discuss religious beliefs or faith by using logic is illogical.  Having unshakable beliefs based purely on faith instead of hard evidence is illogical, so trying to use logical debating points is fruitless.  The turn the other cheek or do unto others as you would have them philosophy is rarely practiced by those who profess to have the strongest beliefs.  Adherents of both the Bible and Koran have a tendency to pick and choose the passages from those books which best suit their views and ignore those which don't.  Differences which  most of us would (or should) see as insignificant have been the cause of many bloody wars throughout the last 2000 years of our history.

For these reasons this thread had best get back on topic or I expect that Erik will kill it because religious discussions always become acrimonious.  This one is just skirting the edges right now, and it won't be long before someone can't resist the impulse to mount the pulpit and start preaching.

I have my own beliefs, but I'm neither a missionary nor a preacher, and I will not condemn another for his beliefs.

[iacas]

It's kind of on topic. If it goes farther off topic, we'll just move it out of Tour Talk.

[zipazoid]

I find it amusing how people get all sideways over who someone chooses to sleep with.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

For these reasons this thread had best get back on topic or I expect that Erik will kill it because religious discussions always become acrimonious.  This one is just skirting the edges right now, and it won't be long before someone can't resist the impulse to mount the pulpit and start preaching.

It's kind of on topic. If it goes farther off topic, we'll just move it out of Tour Talk.

I knew you'd be lurking somewhere close by. My post was mostly just cautionary.

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

I would like to answer a question on this topic I hear quite often. "Why do you care, what does it bother you if others are gay?"

I do not want to start a fight or cause offense (I will try to make this my only post in this thread), but I would only like to offer a differing view point.

My personal beliefs fall in line with Broussards. I believe the homosexual lifestyle is openly disobeying gods will.

I do believe that gay people are born that way, but I still consider it a sin. Similar to someone born with a tendency to steal, lie, etc.. This is something I believe the individual needs to fight against instead of succumbing to the temptation.

Now you ask "ok I can respect your beliefs, but how does it make a difference in your life? Why do you care?"

If someone close to me is born with the tendency to be gay, and society nurtures it and oks it(like it has recently), there is a much better chance my loved one will find it harder to fight against this temptation.

BULLSH!T

The difference is, gay people are born gay - it's natural and who they are.

Christians aren't born christian - they are told to be christian and told that being gay is wrong and prejudism is absolutely O.K. They have a choice to not think that way - but still do. I can't believe that isn't a sin itself to be that weak not to live a life of your own, but one of the bibles.

If someone close to me is raised Christian, and society nurtures it and oks it, there is a chance that their children will be forced to believe the same prejudice lies and find it harder to fight against the corporate, lying world of christianity.

[iacas]

I think the science on that is inconclusive at best. People might be born with a bit of a tendency but the latest info seems to be that a person's sexual orientation is set fairly early, but not pre-birth or genetically.

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by iacas

I think the science on that is inconclusive at best. People might be born with a bit of a tendency but the latest info seems to be that a person's sexual orientation is set fairly early, but not pre-birth or genetically.

Well regardless, they don't have a choice in the matter.

[iacas]

I encourage you to actually read about it. "Choice" can be defined a bunch of ways, but in many cases, I think you could actually be wrong. Not the majority, but many. I didn't define "early" but in some people it's not until their early teens, from some of the things I've read recently (I'm somewhat interested because if it WAS genetic, that should completely end the debate as far as I'm concerned, but alas, it's not, and I tend to lean Republican, but on this issue most of them are off their rockers).

Personally, I don't really care. They're people too, and should be afforded the same rights and privileges as every other human being. As we move farther and farther from religion as the basis for our laws, the better in this type of situation.

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by Kieran123

BULLSH!T

The difference is, gay people are born gay - it's natural and who they are.

Christians aren't born christian - they are told to be christian and told that being gay is wrong and prejudism is absolutely O.K. They have a choice to not think that way - but still do. I can't believe that isn't a sin itself to be that weak not to live a life of your own, but one of the bibles.

If someone close to me is raised Christian, and society nurtures it and oks it, there is a chance that their children will be forced to believe the same prejudice lies and find it harder to fight against the corporate, lying world of christianity.

i agree, gay people are born gay. There is more science coming out that supports this. But just because your born something, doesn't mean its in there nature to act on it. Both sides are technically right, gays are born gay, but there is still a choice. Also i would like to say, that there is nothing in the bible that says, two men (or women) can't love each other. The love i am talking about is one were you want to spend the rest of your life with someone. The acts of sin they are talking about are sexual. Meaning, by christian standards, two men can live with each other, raise a children together, gain all the benefits of being in a loving relationship, as long as they dont' have sex. This is not my belief, just an observation on interpretation. Honestly i don't care what someone does in there bedroom. They could break out the handcuffs for all i care, have at it, more power to them. If a person finds love, let them be happy. A happy person will do more good in this world than a jaded angry person. There is more important things that can be done than giving a damn about someone's sex life.

Christianity is not prejudicial. Its the act of the person that is. Bible doesn't say go out and condem everyone. The bible is very much an individual guidebook. Given, churches do give there interpretation, but it is for there congregation to follow, not for the people in the congregation to go out and try to impose on those who are not christian, or those who sin. So, to say christianity created a lying world is wrong. Human's created a lying world through the manipulation of christianity.

If you take Jesus most profound statement,

³⁷ Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ ^{[ a ] 38} This is the first and greatest commandment. ³⁹ And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ ^{[ b ] 40} All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

There isn't much you can go wrong if you do this. If you base your dislike of christianity on the people of the church who decide to live outside this statement, then that is very wrong. I was raised in a roman catholic household. My uncle is very much a hypocritical zealot. Him and I clash. I actually filter his emails to my trash bin because i get to worked up combating him on religious topics. My mom, very devote catholic, is a 180 from my uncle. She lives her life in a chrisitian way, but respects all other's for how they live there life. She doesn't impose her beliefs on others.

I know some will say, your not loving God if you sin. Well you got to pick your battles. Where human, we have choice, we are not perfect, nor will we ever be. We can only do the best we can. If finding happiness and someone who loves you, makes your life better and those around you better, then i say its a sin worth having, if a sin at all. Cause, i take that 2nd part much in reverse, how can you love those around you if you don't love yourself. If you have hatred and condemnation about yourself, its hard to love those around you. Usually we are our own worst critics, but that critisism while directed inward, has a great effect on the world around us. Who here likes to be around a depressed person? Just saying.

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by saevel25

If you take Jesus most profound statement,

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

There isn't much you can go wrong if you do this. If you base your dislike of christianity on the people of the church who decide to live outside this statement, then that is very wrong. I was raised in a roman catholic household. My uncle is very much a hypocritical zealot. Him and I clash. I actually filter his emails to my trash bin because i get to worked up combating him on religious topics. My mom, very devote catholic, is a 180 from my uncle. She lives her life in a chrisitian way, but respects all other's for how they live there life. She doesn't impose her beliefs on others.

Well, proof of god's existence is nowhere to be seen - so right off the bat, you are living a life based on myth which is wrong.

[iacas]

You can't "agree" or "disagree" with something that is either true or false (i.e. a matter of fact), and the latest research is actually much more leaning towards how people are NOT "born gay."

For example: "While there may be increased probability, science at present does not seem to support the conclusion that there's a strong biological component. Since identical twins have identical genetics, it would follow that if one twin was homosexual, it's highly probable that the other would also be homosexual, but both twins are homosexual in less than 15% of the cases."

http://faculty.wcas.northwestern.edu/JMichael-Bailey/Publications/Bailey%20et%20al.%20twins,2000.pdf
http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

[14ledo81]

Originally Posted by Kieran123

Well, proof of god's existence is nowhere to be seen - so right off the bat, you are living a life based on myth which is wrong.

And this is where all religious "arguments" end.