Vanity handicaps. AKA Screw Balls

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Correct.

It's worth noting that the ESC thresholds are based on course handicap, not handicap index, but that won't change your ESC at a 5. Something to consider for those whose index hovers around 10/20/30 though.....

Yeah, even at a 7.7, if I play a course/tees with a slope of 140 or higher, I am playing to at least a 10 and have to post all of my 7's, even if they are on par 4's or 5's.

The lowest handicap that would ever have to worry about a change to their ESC is a 7.0 ... playing a course with a 154 or 155 slope.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

There is nothing terribly out of the ordinary about a 10 cap not breaking 90. Heck, I'm under 8 now (legitimately) and have shot over 90 2 or 3 times in the last year or so.

I was at US Open Regional Qualifying at Newport Beach yesterday.  Now this is Regional qualifying so everyone had already either gone through local qualifying or were exempt into this round, which would have washed out the fakers who enter local qualifying with made up handicaps.  There was a 91, a 90 and a couple of 85s.  So you're right, it happens.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by turtleback

I was at US Open Regional Qualifying at Newport Beach yesterday.  Now this is Regional qualifying so everyone had already either gone through local qualifying or were exempt into this round, which would have washed out the fakers who enter local qualifying with made up handicaps.  There was a 91, a 90 and a couple of 85s.  So you're right, it happens.

Exactly.  You have to shoot a legit score (usually under par, it appears) over 18 hole in tournament conditions, and beat 95 or so of the 100 or so who entered.  There isn't anybody playing in those sectionals who isn't a really good golfer.

[Floris]

I don't do handicaps, I count shots. It's nice to see a round with way over 36 stableford points, but when I can shoot an eleven on a par3 and still manage to improve on my handicap.. Something's off ;) I did play a round of 82 yesterday, 41 in and 41 out. (SI of 135) Worst was a double bogey after I hit a driver OB. That's the consistency we all aim for I guess, when your worst score is a double after hitting something OB or in a water hazard.

[carrx]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

LOL, this is crazy.  I thought my dad and his 22 vanity cap - that I estimate should be about 28 or 29 - was bad.  Holy moly!

I did play with a guy last year that claimed to be a 7, but had a swing that was a lot more indicative of a 16 at least.  On one hole, I hopped into the driver seat and so I asked him what he got there and he said something like "well, without those 2 (tee balls astray) I got a 4" with the clear inference that he would like me to write a down a 4.  Okie dokie.

..."So, an 8 then?" is my typical response to this guy.

My dad has a similar vanity handicap, he keeps his score meticulously, just chooses not to post scores that "don't reflect" what he thinks he ought to be scoring...needless to say, there are a lot of 105s out there that don't get posted.

[Meltdwhiskey]

A buddy of mine has a vanity cap.  Never really plays 'all' of the rules.  Has trouble getting an 8 to the card.  Always some convoluted reason.  So he walks around telling everyone he is an 11.

But when Saturday comes around, he never wants to give the strokes away.  Says it is best to just play your best against the course.  Also says that you just can't win giving away those 7 or whatever strokes.  That it forces the better cap to get birdie on every hole or else he'll lose - so it isn't fair.  He can't be talked into the fact that the handicap folks have all this worked out - and that this is what the handicap system is for.  He always says that I am the one that doesn't understand.

[Unkynd]

If they aren't playing you for money... who cares really?  You want to pick up your ball after double bogey? great... you just increased our pace of play.  Thanks!

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by turtleback

I was at US Open Regional Qualifying at Newport Beach yesterday.  Now this is Regional qualifying so everyone had already either gone through local qualifying or were exempt into this round, which would have washed out the fakers who enter local qualifying with made up handicaps.  There was a 91, a 90 and a couple of 85s.  So you're right, it happens.

Oh I can totally see that happening. To begin with, it's been my experience that you can add at least 5 strokes to your handicap just by playing a tournament - any tournament played under USGA rules. Then add in the pressure of it being a US Open Regional Qualifier, with the chance to actually PLAY in the US Open, and you can add a few more strokes onto that. So a 2h plays like a 10, gets off to a shaky start then just loses it completely. Been there done that.

[Floris]

Don't forget the course for those events is (way) longer with fairways that are harder to drive too. I saw a 255 yard par3 on TV recently, I don't know many courses that have a 250+ yard par3 from the back tees :)

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Floris

Don't forget the course for those events is (way) longer with fairways that are harder to drive too. I saw a 255 yard par3 on TV recently, I don't know many courses that have a 250+ yard par3 from the back tees :)

Not really ... http://scpga.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/scpga10/event/scpga1052/course/bigcanyoncc/actual.htm

It has a 230+ yard par 3, yes, but 6900 is not obscenely long, by any means.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by club ho

As an example I play with a good golfer who is around a 10 handicap and he always tells me he likes when his handicap goes below 10 because then he only has to take a double bogey. When he gets to the double bogey situation he picks the ball up.

Just a point of clarification: this example isn't really an illustration of a sandbagger nor a reverse sandbagger.  It's just a guy not telling you his real score at the end of the round.  His handicap would be legit, however.

Originally Posted by club ho

These guys I refer to hate to play for money needless to say.  I guess it could be worse they could be sand baggers.

Sandbaggers are absolutely worse.  Vanity caps just make for comic relief, and possibly easy money.

I don't think visuals are much of a gauge either and some of it is opinion. Example would be I know some older women that swing odd but hit it short and straight on their way to better than bogey golf. Some of the senior men have similar odd looking swings but again they don't get into trouble and they putt well enough to overcome taking 3 shots to get to the green on most par 4's so they see par often enough to keep it somewhat low. Sometimes it's very obvious but sometimes not.

I'm not sure those examples should really count, though.  Let's be real, when you're playing from forward tees, the course can be completely different.  Even course slopes don't really accurately reflect the differences on a lot of the courses I play.

Originally Posted by MacDutch

Wow, that must hurt.

That seemed uncalled for.  We're not talking about whether people suck at golf, just about people that lie about how good they are.

[bplewis24]

Okay, I had to go do some searching for the article I was looking at last week.  This was a search I was doing for the top initiation fees of private country clubs across the nation.  On an unrelated note, they provided a list of some celebrities and their handicaps.  Scroll to the bottom of the link for the full list, but these are the lowest: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/las-power-golf-clubs-hollywood-205072

Top of the Game

Nick Stevens: 1.4

Jack Wagner: 1.9

Matt Lauer: 3.6

Samuel L. Jackson: 3.7

Ari Emanuel: 4.0

Donald Trump: 4.0

Lloyd Braun: 4.1

Steve Mosko: 4.1

Dennis Quaid: 4.8

Justin Timberlake: 5.4

David Friendly: 5.7

Jay Sures: 8.6

Patick Whitesell: 9.5

Rob Light: 9.7

Jeff Ross: 10.0

Now, some of these guys I've never heard of or never seen them swing before.  I have no idea how good or bad they are.  But I've seen some celebrities play before and have also seen their listed handicaps and thought something was seriously wrong.  I'm convinced that celebrities probably carry the vast majority of the vanity handicaps in the universe.  I don't see why many of them are even taken seriously.

Anybody have examples of celebrity vanity handicaps?

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Okay, I had to go do some searching for the article I was looking at last week.  This was a search I was doing for the top initiation fees of private country clubs across the nation.  On an unrelated note, they provided a list of some celebrities and their handicaps.  Scroll to the bottom of the link for the full list, but these are the lowest: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/las-power-golf-clubs-hollywood-205072

Now, some of these guys I've never heard of or never seen them swing before.  I have no idea how good or bad they are.  But I've seen some celebrities play before and have also seen their listed handicaps and thought something was seriously wrong.  I'm convinced that celebrities probably carry the vast majority of the vanity handicaps in the universe.  I don't see why many of them are even taken seriously.

Anybody have examples of celebrity vanity handicaps?

I would say it's perfectly reasonable to assume JT's is legit ...

I have a hard time believing that he would ever have any trouble beating Donald Trump.

As far as celebrity vanity caps, I'd say a vast majority of the (famous) hackers that we see at Pebble have them.  So many of them have typical hacker swings indicative of something in the 18-30 range, yet a lot seem to carry 6-12 caps, or at least that is what they tell us on TV.

Vince Gill was good, though not sure he qualifies as much of a "celebrity" anymore. ;)

[bplewis24]

That's my first time seeing JT swing.  I thought I saw Sam L Jackson and know I've seen Trump before, though.

[flintcreek6412]

There is so much more that goes into determining a handicap than just looking at a raw score over par.  Lots of people don't understand the process and simply think if they shoot an average of an 82 on their par 72 course they are a 10 handicap.....but it's not.

My cousin thinks he's a 3 handicap because he average 39 on his local 9 hole course.  The course has a very low slope rating.  His "3" would probably translate into more like a 10 plus.  He's still a decent player but no where near what he thinks he is.

Then remember that USGA takes your best 10 out of 20 scores after accounting for course difficulty......You can throw a few 90's into the mix and they simply disappear.  Then that number is further multiplied by .96 to lower it even more than your best 10 adjusted averages.   The reality is that you will play to your course handicap less than 25% of the time.

Compound the issue further when all of your posted scores are on your home course that you have learned how to play very well.  Course knowledge is very valuable to help lower scores.  There is almost no way your local course handicap will travel to new courses where you don't know the greens or trouble areas.  The first time I played my parents course I shot in the 90's even though my course handicap was about an 11.  My index was 8.5.  That 140 plus slope was loaded with trouble everywhere that I wasn't familiar with.  Add false front greens and crazy uphill/downhill/sidehill shots I didn't have a prayer.  I can now play it in the 80s but still not to my course handicap.

So just judging a guy by his swing or performance on a single round is absolutely no measure of how he might play most of the time.

[Moppy]

Personally, I count every stroke, including penalties when I hit the tee shot out of bounds and re-hit it. Otherwise, I would never know whether I was improving or not. Why anybody wants to fool themselves is beyond me. Then again, I just took up the sport a couple of months ago at 56 and am not trying to fool anybody into thinking I am good. My goal is a credible social game with decent pace.  Keeping track of bad shots helps me to know what to work on to achieve that. Mostly, consistency is what will bring that, I think, since even a rank beginner like me can hit a few decent shots and pretend that is my "true" game. Scoring every stroke and penalty will give me a measure of consistency.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by flintcreek6412

There is so much more that goes into determining a handicap than just looking at a raw score over par.  Lots of people don't understand the process and simply think if they shoot an average of an 82 on their par 72 course they are a 10 handicap.....but it's not.

My cousin thinks he's a 3 handicap because he average 39 on his local 9 hole course.  The course has a very low slope rating.  His "3" would probably translate into more like a 10 plus.  He's still a decent player but no where near what he thinks he is.

Then remember that USGA takes your best 10 out of 20 scores after accounting for course difficulty......You can throw a few 90's into the mix and they simply disappear.  Then that number is further multiplied by .96 to lower it even more than your best 10 adjusted averages.   The reality is that you will play to your course handicap less than 25% of the time.

Compound the issue further when all of your posted scores are on your home course that you have learned how to play very well.  Course knowledge is very valuable to help lower scores.  There is almost no way your local course handicap will travel to new courses where you don't know the greens or trouble areas.  The first time I played my parents course I shot in the 90's even though my course handicap was about an 11.  My index was 8.5.  That 140 plus slope was loaded with trouble everywhere that I wasn't familiar with.  Add false front greens and crazy uphill/downhill/sidehill shots I didn't have a prayer.  I can now play it in the 80s but still not to my course handicap.

So just judging a guy by his swing or performance on a single round is absolutely no measure of how he might play most of the time.

Good post.

Yeah, a handicap isn't supposed to represent your 'average' score; it's to represent your 'potential' score.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by AmazingWhacker

I didn't break 90, either - so far, never have.

Originally Posted by MacDutch

Wow, that must hurt.

Originally Posted by bplewis24

That seemed uncalled for.  We're not talking about whether people suck at golf, just about people that lie about how good they are.

Agreed, totally uncalled for and, IMHO, contrary to the spirit of this community.

Big Thumbs Down on that comment.