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Posted

@billchao - I can't stand passive aggressiveness so when people are direct it's appreciated. Say what you mean and mean what you say. I also believe you genuinely care about helping people improve.

That said, I don't agree with your post.

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Jon

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Posted

@JonMA1, your hidden stuff is seemingly out of line and not at all what @billchao was saying. Nobody was making fun, least of all Bill.

Bill’s advice comes from a good place and shows that people are still following you and care. Try to see it from his perspective. Or at least give the benefit of doubt. Where are we joking about you? Teasing or making fun? C’mon…


The hip slide in that is NOT bad. What hurts you there is the lack of turn.

Yet… I have no idea what you should work on.

Maybe golf is not for you. Maybe, because you're unlike every other golfer I've ever seen, and your swing changes rather dramatically one day or week to another, you're simply uncoachable, by anyone. Yourself included. Maybe you button up one thing and the other twelve (making up numbers here) all fall apart again. So you fix one of those things and the first thing falls apart again. Maybe you lack whatever it is that most people have where things can "stick" and they can honestly work on something enough for it to stick at least temporarily, and take it from the range to the golf course. I've seen some people accomplish real changes in a short period of time that surprises me, so it makes sense, perhaps, that I should see the opposite: a change that never sticks.

I've stopped offering advice to you for the most part, mostly because I've never seen anything really stick. I was interested in your "different way" this past winter and into this summer.

But I don't disagree with Bill, either. Your hip slide isn't anywhere close to "horrible." It's not. You lack a turn there - the torso with the right shoulder still that visible there isn't great. But the hips didn't sway much at all. Surely you can see that. No?

As for what you do from here or where you go… I still got nothin'. It's your game. You have tried several things. I'm not going to tell you what to do, but that's partly based on past experience, and partly because I was interested to see what you'd do with your own made-up plan.

Good luck whatever you do. But please, people here comment because they care, and they don't need scolded for that.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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Posted

@iacas I’m typing from my phone so I apologize in advance for typos, etc.

I think you mistook my tone. I have nothing but respect for Bill. He’s one of the good guys here. My reply had very little emotion attached. @billchao my apologies that it came across as such.

I agree with most of what you said other than the part about the game not being for me. Otherwise I would have a quit long ago. 

I am uncoachable and my swing does change. I respectfully disagree with your opinion on the hip slide but that’s neither here nor there. I agree with the lack of shoulder turn and will continue to work on improving that.

FWIW, your teaching methodology is the best I’ve seen and why I tried so hard for so long to make it work. I have no desire to be different - you’ll have to trust me on that.

Jon

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Posted
  On 2/26/2018 at 1:14 PM, JonMA1 said:

I respectfully disagree with your opinion on the hip slide but that’s neither here nor there. I agree with the lack of shoulder turn and will continue to work on improving that.

Expand  

No, you're wrong there. It's not your hip slide or sway that's the "problem." Is it perfect? No. But it's nowhere near "horrible."

What is pretty bad? Where your head or "URC" goes:

Analyzr Image Export.jpg

Look at the dot and see how much your head moves relative to it. Your hips have to sway back a bit to offset the head and torso moving where they move.

That's from this:

  On 2/25/2018 at 11:05 PM, JonMA1 said:

HipSlide.thumb.jpg.095f6b8842fd1bafaf02ae8b08c041ab.jpg

Horrible hip slide - and I never would have known it if not for the video. Needless to say, I didn't get into very good impact position. Not sure what's worse, slipping back into bad habits so easily or being able to hit great shots when doing it.

Expand  

Moving on…

  On 2/26/2018 at 1:14 PM, JonMA1 said:

FWIW, your teaching methodology is the best I’ve seen and why I tried so hard for so long to make it work. I have no desire to be different - you’ll have to trust me on that.

Expand  

You don't have to say that. It is what it is, and people here still comment because they care, but also some people will comment less partly because you kind of asked them to, so you could do your own thing.

But Bill replied to your "horrible" comment and I'll back him up on that since you disagreed.

It's not horrible, and it's about your head way, WAY more than your hips.

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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Posted
  On 2/26/2018 at 1:28 PM, iacas said:

You don't have to say that. It is what it is, and people here still comment because they care, but also some people will comment less partly because you kind of asked them to, so you could do your own thing.

Expand  

I say that because it’s important (to me) that you and others understand where I’m coming from. To be honest, I feel guilty as hell that people offer help when I have so much difficulty applying their advice.

Look, I don’t know jack$hit about the swing. There’s a very good chance this season will end the same as every other. I will have at least tried to change the picture.

Jon

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Posted

No worries, @JonMA1. We're good as far as I'm concerned.

I just saw something and offered some advice I felt could help. It won't offend me if you don't take it. It's your game and if part of your enjoyment of it is trying to work it out yourself, I understand that completely.

I'm not asking you to post less here. What I will do is offer my input less, out of respect, because as @iacas said, you kind of asked us to.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

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Posted
  On 2/26/2018 at 1:46 PM, JonMA1 said:

I say that because it’s important (to me) that you and others understand where I’m coming from. To be honest, I feel guilty as hell that people offer help when I have so much difficulty applying their advice.

Look, I don’t know jack$hit about the swing. There’s a very good chance this season will end the same as every other. I will have at least tried to change the picture.

Expand  

All of us non-pros are in the same boat as you. We don’t know anything about the Swing either.

However, I will note that for years people (including pros) have been telling you what’s wrong. This certainly can become a thread of frustration if you keep saying you can’t make the fix people have been trying to help you with for so long.

I don’t really know how to fix your issues, but I know when things don’t happen right. I’d maybe focus on some recommended drills or such rather than just hitting balls into a net the same way all the time?

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Posted (edited)
  On 1/1/2018 at 7:15 PM, JonMA1 said:

It's been a long time since i've posted any video. I'll try to be careful not to delete this one from my YouTube channel.

There are a lot of things wrong with my swing that I've yet to address.  Too much movement at address, too much head movement, opening my hips too early...etc. But I think the most damaging might be coming out of posture as I always seem to do, causing a fail of key#1. No one in the PGA gets taller as they start the downswing. There are just too many things to worry about right now. I have to limit what I'm focusing on. 

These two views are not from the same swing, but are from the same practice session. There are a few things I've been working on that I'm happy with - even if I can't repeat them. Weight shift, swing path, club face control.

 

Expand  

I know I'm taking some risk by chipping in here, especially since I'm just a fellow hacker and not a scratch golfer or a teaching pro. 

What's up with the baseball grip?   I don't know how people can swing a club with their hands that far apart.

Secondly, your right foot is turned out and your left foot is parallel.  I would do the opposite.  Turn your right foot to the left, and your left foot out.   Less back swing and easier follow through.  

Also, are you rolling onto the outside of your right foot on the back swing?  That's a common mistake I make, too.  They say you're supposed to keep your weight on the inside of the right foot. 

Thirdly, there's a lot of upper body and head movement at the top of the back swing.  When you come to the top of the back swing, can you just stop moving?   There's a lot of head movement. 

Fourthly, maybe from reading a few of the posts in this thread, it seems like you're trying too hard, and working on too many things at once. 

Really, from looking at this swing, it doesn't look that bad.  You have a lot of good things in there.

 

Edited by Marty2019
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Posted
  On 2/26/2018 at 2:31 PM, JonMA1 said:

Thanks @billchao, @Lihu, and @Marty2019. I really do appreciate the advice and I’m not as frustrated as it probably seems. It’s golf, right?

Expand  

Even @Jack Watson is frustrated. :-D

Seriously, it would be a great moral boost for many of us to see you make those changes to your swing. :-)

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Posted (edited)
  On 2/26/2018 at 2:43 PM, Lihu said:

Even @Jack Watson is frustrated. :-D

Seriously, it would be a great moral boost for many of us to see you make those changes to your swing. :-)

Expand  

Ha ha. The reason for my initial post yesterday was the quality of the shots when compared to the myriad of swing faults. I might start a topic under Golf Talk or because I think it would make for a decent discussion. Not my swing, just how bad swings can produce good results. What do you think?

Edited by JonMA1

Jon

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Posted
  On 2/26/2018 at 2:50 PM, JonMA1 said:

Ha ha. The reason for my initial post yesterday was the quality of the shots when compared to the myriad of swing faults. I might start a topic under Golf Talk or because I think it would make for a decent discussion. Not my swing, just how bad swings can produce good results. What do you think?

Expand  

IDK, I’ve seen enough good swings produce bad shots to try to avoid topics like that. :-D

 

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Posted
  On 2/16/2018 at 6:12 PM, JonMA1 said:

I know... I was drooling over the prospect of getting one when you guys all started posting your numbers. OTOH, I need - or would like - to know the lateral ball flight which brings another $1400 into play. Over the last couple of years I've been looking at all the simulator and flight monitor options. In the end, it just comes down to being fiscally responsible. While a Mevo or any other device would help make winters less boring, I seriously doubt it would make much of a difference in game improvement until I can learn to take my off-the-mat, indoor swing out to the course.

Thanks for the advice @Bennett Stone. I assume you meant "hip" turn? 

What you're saying seems to be what I'm experiencing during indoor practices. I'm not sure why that is, other than a better shoulder turn sometimes keeps me from rushing the downswing which, in turn, allows a better weight shift. That weight shift seems to help in at least two other areas - better inline impact (shaft lean) and a more in-to-out club path.

That said, I wasn't getting as much shoulder turn hitting outside yesterday - less than 90° - and my ball flight was more of a fade. Along with other issues, I can't seem to get a good shoulder turn in my swing. But I agree, it's an important piece to work on and one of the things I look at when evaluating my swing.

Expand  

If uur hitting a fade and you dont want to try waggle the club in your pre shot reutine and Yes that preatty much what I said also try to make your waggle go on the inside and in a straight line

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  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

Ancillary BS

  Reveal hidden contents

That said, the following video is an attempt at the latter option. I'm focusing more on the areas that others have suggested recently - steadier head and better turn (thanks @billchao, @iacas, @Lihu, @Marty2019 and @Bennett Stone). 

The swing thoughts are:

1) "pull" more with my trail shoulder going back instead of pushing with my lead. While I can get considerably more turn than shown in the video below (which I think is 90°), the challenge is not worrying about contact and concentrating more on making that full turn THEN starting my downswing from back/up there. I find the rest of my body does an ok job when I do this. It's just a matter of fighting the bad habits.

2) There is still some head movement here, but after the initial twitchiness on the takeaway, I think I've reduced much of the lateral movement. I've only been working on this for a few days.

The thought is to keep my head steady on the BS then allow only vertical (down) movement if any. Concentrating on looking at the ball longer seems to help reduce that forward movement through impact.

As far as weight forward, I believe I was approaching this incorrectly for a long time... for years. I got so caught up in trying to getting 90% of my weight forward at impact that everything else suffered.

I don't know much about this game so it's all trial and error. The main point is that until I learn to carry this stuff over to the course, it's all about improving a practice swing. That's not really golf.

Jon

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Posted (edited)
  On 3/11/2018 at 1:37 PM, JonMA1 said:

Ancillary BS

  Reveal hidden contents

That said, the following video is an attempt at the latter option. I'm focusing more on the areas that others have suggested recently - steadier head and better turn (thanks @billchao, @iacas, @Lihu, @Marty2019 and @Bennett Stone). 

The swing thoughts are:

1) "pull" more with my trail shoulder going back instead of pushing with my lead. While I can get considerably more turn than shown in the video below (which I think is 90°), the challenge is not worrying about contact and concentrating more on making that full turn THEN starting my downswing from back/up there. I find the rest of my body does an ok job when I do this. It's just a matter of fighting the bad habits.

2) There is still some head movement here, but after the initial twitchiness on the takeaway, I think I've reduced much of the lateral movement. I've only been working on this for a few days.

The thought is to keep my head steady on the BS then allow only vertical (down) movement if any. Concentrating on looking at the ball longer seems to help reduce that forward movement through impact.

As far as weight forward, I believe I was approaching this incorrectly for a long time... for years. I got so caught up in trying to getting 90% of my weight forward at impact that everything else suffered.

I don't know much about this game so it's all trial and error. The main point is that until I learn to carry this stuff over to the course, it's all about improving a practice swing. That's not really golf.

Expand  

Just looking at that picture, I would say you need to start with one important thing, and that is, turn both feet to the left.  Your right foot is pointed too far back.  Turn it more square.   Your left foot is also turned too far to the right.   Turn it more toward the target. 

Do like Ben Hogan- right foot square, left foot turned out 22 degrees. 

Making this change will shorten your back swing and improve your consistency.  You don't need a big back swing.  Just look at Jon Rahm. 

Do it!  

You have a lot of good elements to build on there.  Your swing is a lot better than some of the guys I play with.  

 

 

 

 

Edited by Marty2019
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Posted

Agree with Marty. I’d also add that the Swing is not really a pulling feeling. It’s more of a throwing action. Your previous thoughts were more correct?

You look really tense too!

If you can think of it as a throwing action with your hands past your rear thigh or something that might help you from looking and possibly feeling really tense?

Not relaxed, but like your body and arms are really loose at the lead arm shoulders and throwing with your trail arm at the right time to max your speed? 

As if you are throwing a 50 pound bag of cement or something?

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Posted (edited)

Also, about taking your practice to the course, the easiest and best way to do that is to take one and only one thing to the course.  In your case, I'd say it is the foot position.  You can set your feet correctly, right foot square, left foot turned 22 degrees out, before you take the club back.  Practice with your feet in the corrected alignment, then when you go to the course, just put your feet in the correct alignment. 

You have a lot of good elements, but you absolutely must correct those feet. 

Fundamentals are called fundamentals for a reason, and foot position is fundamental. 

Edited by Marty2019
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Posted
  On 3/14/2018 at 2:14 PM, Lihu said:

Agree with Marty. I’d also add that the Swing is not really a pulling feeling. It’s more of a throwing action. Your previous thoughts were more correct?

Expand  

I don't agree either. His back foot doesn't need to be anywhere near square. He might be able to turn it in a little bit, but I wouldn't do it much. Square feet encourage swaying.

Also, @Marty2019 in particular, don't just accept drawings in a book as the truth.

Hogan.jpg

And @Lihu, there are a lot of great players who feel that it's like a "pulling" action. TGM talks about pushing vs. pulling. Hitters vs. Swingers. Whatever the case, "pulling" is a completely legitimate feeling.


@JonMA1, I don't think the stuff you hid is the sub-topic, I think it's THE topic. What good is practice at all if it doesn't transfer?

If you really can't make the same swings on the course as you can in your practice setup, then in my experience either:

  • You've not really cemented anything, ever. How long do you focus on ingraining any one thing? Do you jump from priority to priority frequently? It's normal, for example, for golfers to be able to do something in practice when they're focusing solely on doing that thing, and slide back quite a ways to their "typical" swing on the golf course when they have to consider other things, but the longer they stay with that priority thing the less the back sliding is, until it's virtually none. That takes time. If you're on to a new thing after two weeks, or even sometimes two months, then you're going to slide right back to it.
  • An invalid or incorrect on the course, wherein you can't transfer what you're working on to the course. For example if you're working on pushing your hips forward on the downswing to finish with your weight forward, once you've chosen your club, aim, etc., that has to be the sole swing thought, the sole feeling. Control the process. Make practice swing (i.e. a swing like you make in practice) that just happens to take place on the golf course. Commit to it at all costs - you'll hit some weird shots, but you'll also see glimpses of the good, and EVERY swing should finish on your front foot in that case, or you've not done it properly. (The alternative is, particularly early on in the process, to just play golf and don't worry about your swing "piece", but to begin worrying about it when it is somewhat repeatable at > 50% speed or so in practice.)

I think you are mostly guilty of the former, and as such, you never get to the point where you can take that one piece to the course. I only skim your posts because I've gotten the sense that you get agitated sometimes when people try to help (which is really a frustration with yourself), but from a 2000 foot away view it looks like you do change things up pretty frequently.

Yes, you might have 11 things wrong, or 7, or 17, or 5 things wrong with your golf swing. But your process should likely be the same as everyone else's - work on your one priority piece until it's "locked in." Until you do it without really thinking about it. Until you reach unconscious competence.

(You take it to the course with a swing thought, rehearsals, etc. between steps 3 and 4.)

  • Upvote 1

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
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