Forum Profile Handicap Indices....

[WhySoSerious]

I calculated my handicap last night but all my scores are from the same course, it came out to a 7.3 but I know if I wasn't playing there twice a week and went from course to course it would be much worse. I would be reluctant to call myself even an 8 just because I have played this course almost exclusively since May, I feel comfortable and confident there. I played hockey at a fairly high level for a number of years(goalie) in front of fairly large crowds and didn't get as nervous as I sometimes do when people are watching me tee off. I play golf as a way to be outside and not think about anything else, focus on the moment, relax. I have zero interest in playing competitively but in a way that's what playing net was, less about any me vs. _ and more about being unconscious in the moment.

[SloverUT]

My Handicap is official and accurate!

[Pakoh]

i keep a handicap that is officially current.  i just dont post it on the internet.

Once i get to scratch i will put it up there so my opinions will be taken more seriously.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by Pakoh

i keep a handicap that is officially current.  i just dont post it on the internet.

Once i get to scratch i will put it up there so my opinions will be taken more seriously.

Haha

[TJBam]

Originally Posted by Pakoh

i keep a handicap that is officially current.  i just dont post it on the internet.

Once i get to scratch i will put it up there so my opinions will be taken more seriously.

Ain't that the truth!!

[boil3rmak3r]

Sure I can. It's not a straight up athletic competition. Period. If it was, they'd give the crappier guys on the PGA tour a few strokes. I'm not saying it's not fun, or that it can't get intense. I'm sure if you win, you feel great, and it's fantastic.  I don't get what's so difficult about this...if you get 10 strokes, and he beats you by 5...in any real competitive nature, he beat you. Period. You lost. I understan d winning that round by the handicap system, and how that's fun or how it can be exciting. But you can explain yourself 1,000...if he shot 78 and you shot 83, you lost. Every time. When money is on the line, the handicap system is great, but a true competitive person no longer sees that as a real athletic competition. It's more gambling at that point and you're just changing the over/under... If you have to ask that question, you are absolutely not competitive.

I'm going to take a wild stab... I'd venture to guess that you've never competed in a club championship, or a club's Ryder Cup match, or a Steeple Chase. Am I correct?? Anyone who has done any of those can tell you the difference between playing competitive golf and simply "competing" in a casual round to beat your own handicap. I'd guess even the most experienced golfers in this forum will admit to still getting the jitters during on the first green or two if they are facing a 5' putt to win the hole during a match play championship. Why don't we get those jitters in the INTENSE "competition" of playing a casual round to try to better our handicaps? Maybe my education failed me, but I thought competition involved opponents and included some aspect of winning or losing. I get what you're saying about your handicap being your "opponent", but that's just not the same. You said that I am "absolutely not competitive" because I can lose interest in a round where I've played poorly and there is no competition involved. If that's the case, then you think most serious golfers are "absolutely not competitive", because, believe it or not, it happens to most of us serious golfers. I think you should set up a poll on this site and see what others think? Who's the more competitive golfer: A) Someone who plays only casual rounds, but treats them as a competition against their own handicap; or B) someone who seeks to play in tournament events whenever they can and will generally try to find a money game (even if it's only for $2) when tournaments are not being played. I'd love to see the results of that poll...

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by boil3rmak3r

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

Sure I can. It's not a straight up athletic competition. Period. If it was, they'd give the crappier guys on the PGA tour a few strokes.

I'm not saying it's not fun, or that it can't get intense. I'm sure if you win, you feel great, and it's fantastic.

I don't get what's so difficult about this...if you get 10 strokes, and he beats you by 5...in any real competitive nature, he beat you. Period. You lost. I understand winning that round by the handicap system, and how that's fun or how it can be exciting. But you can explain yourself 1,000...if he shot 78 and you shot 83, you lost. Every time.

When money is on the line, the handicap system is great, but a true competitive person no longer sees that as a real athletic competition. It's more gambling at that point and you're just changing the over/under...

If you have to ask that question, you are absolutely not competitive.

I'm going to take a wild stab... I'd venture to guess that you've never competed in a club championship, or a club's Ryder Cup match, or a Steeple Chase. Am I correct??

Anyone who has done any of those can tell you the difference between playing competitive golf and simply "competing" in a casual round to beat your own handicap. I'd guess even the most experienced golfers in this forum will admit to still getting the jitters during on the first green or two if they are facing a 5' putt to win the hole during a match play championship. Why don't we get those jitters in the INTENSE "competition" of playing a casual round to try to better our handicaps?

Maybe my education failed me, but I thought competition involved opponents and included some aspect of winning or losing. I get what you're saying about your handicap being your "opponent", but that's just not the same.

You said that I am "absolutely not competitive" because I can lose interest in a round where I've played poorly and there is no competition involved. If that's the case, then you think most serious golfers are "absolutely not competitive", because, believe it or not, it happens to most of us serious golfers.

I think you should set up a poll on this site and see what others think? Who's the more competitive golfer: A) Someone who plays only casual rounds, but treats them as a competition against their own handicap; or B) someone who seeks to play in tournament events whenever they can and will generally try to find a money game (even if it's only for $2) when tournaments are not being played.

I'd love to see the results of that poll...

Everyone on both sides of this is making great points, but I really don't think there's a right answer.  We're talking about subjective opinions. Re the part I bolded above for example, I do get jitters when I'm having a good round that could potentially drop my handicap significantly. I always have, and in fact for that reason I wasn't any more nervous when I was playing in tournaments. I consider myself a VERY competitive person, and part of that is reflected in all the time, energy, and emotion I put into trying to get better at golf. That is much more important to me than "winning" a match where someone had to give me strokes to make it competitive.  I understand that you feel differently, but neither of us are going to have much luck convincing the other that one way of thinking is the "correct" way.

[boil3rmak3r]

I understand that you feel differently, but neither of us are going to have much luck convincing the other that one way of thinking is the "correct" way.

I know, but it's fun to debate :). Me being told that I was "absolutely not competitive" is what sparked my response...

[bkitt]

mines current to my personal spreadsheet. calculates the same way as official handicaps are. using the slope and rating to find the differential then taking the best ten blah blah blah

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by boil3rmak3r

I'm going to take a wild stab... I'd venture to guess that you've never competed in a club championship, or a club's Ryder Cup match, or a Steeple Chase. Am I correct??

Anyone who has done any of those can tell you the difference between playing competitive golf and simply "competing" in a casual round to beat your own handicap. I'd guess even the most experienced golfers in this forum will admit to still getting the jitters during on the first green or two if they are facing a 5' putt to win the hole during a match play championship. Why don't we get those jitters in the INTENSE "competition" of playing a casual round to try to better our handicaps?

Maybe my education failed me, but I thought competition involved opponents and included some aspect of winning or losing. I get what you're saying about your handicap being your "opponent", but that's just not the same.

You said that I am "absolutely not competitive" because I can lose interest in a round where I've played poorly and there is no competition involved. If that's the case, then you think most serious golfers are "absolutely not competitive", because, believe it or not, it happens to most of us serious golfers.

I think you should set up a poll on this site and see what others think? Who's the more competitive golfer: A) Someone who plays only casual rounds, but treats them as a competition against their own handicap; or B) someone who seeks to play in tournament events whenever they can and will generally try to find a money game (even if it's only for $2) when tournaments are not being played.

I'd love to see the results of that poll...

Originally Posted by boil3rmak3r

I know, but it's fun to debate :). Me being told that I was "absolutely not competitive" is what sparked my response...

" If your competitive nature is solely built upon bettering your handicap and playing against yourself, how do you stay focused when you've already shot your handicap and you still have two holes to play? Those are the rounds that I can lose interest unless there is a true competition on the line..."

That's where I posted the "absolutely not competitive" comment. If you don't constantly strive to get better, and try to shoot your best round every time out, you're just not a competitor in that cut throat competitive sense.

Poker can make you tremble and sweat, doesn't mean it's athletically competitive. And you're completely twisting what I'm saying. To me, competition isn't a boring casual round. Competition is playing my buddy Mike, who's just about dead even with me, and trying to kick his ass. I don't know where you got the "just playing to improve handicap" competition part from... I'm saying that real competition is playing against someone and beating them straight up. Needing to sink an 8 footer for a 74, when the guy your playing just sunk a putt for a 75.

I'll say it again, why don't they give the crappier players on tour a couple strokes? You can't tell me Tiger Woods handicap wouldn't be better than the guys outside the top 100...

And I'll emphasize for like the 10th time, I have nothing against the handicap system, but just don't assume people who don't use it are non-competitive by nature, it very well may be the exact opposite.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

I don't get what's so difficult about this...if you get 10 strokes, and he beats you by 5...in any real competitive nature, he beat you. Period. You lost. I understand winning that round by the handicap system, and how that's fun or how it can be exciting. But you can explain yourself 1,000...if he shot 78 and you shot 83, you lost. Every time.

When money is on the line, the handicap system is great, but a true competitive person no longer sees that as a real athletic competition.

These statements are simply untrue, and the last one has no foundation.

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

This part should really sum up my point....

You can't tell me Tiger Woods' and Tommy Gainey's handicap would be the same...but they don't give Gainey 3-4 strokes. If the handicap system was truly competitive, why wouldn't they?

Those guys are on a level of golf that really is beyond the comprehension of us normal golfers and the parameters of the handicap system.  Besides, they are closer than you think. If I played a true scratch golfer tomorrow, the chances of me posting a better net score than him are like 1% or less probably.  In fact, I believe the best golfer at my club is a 4-something handicap, and while I've come close a few times, I've never, ever posted a net score better than him.  Whereas if we looked up the posted tournament rounds for Gainey and Woods, I'm sure Gainey has posted a number of rounds better than Woods.

Nevertheless, you are still sidestepping the purpose and practicality of the handicapping system.  You're trying to lure everybody into a semantics debate about what defines a competition or a competitive person.  The handicap system's purpose is precisely to allow golfers of different ability to compete against each other.  It makes the pool of competitive golfers larger.  Otherwise, the amount of golfers willing to pay dues and fees for competitive golf would shrink significantly as their chances of being competitive shrink from, say, 40% an any given day down to <1%.  You may propose that, strictly speaking, only an uncompetitive person would refuse to partake in a competition that he had less than 1% of winning, but that would be an unreasonable measure and definition of competitiveness.

This whole exercise seems like a way to beat your chest and say, "look how competitive I am," while at the same time denouncing the competitive nature of anybody who subscribes to the handicap system.  But I don't think you're accomplishing that at all.  In my opinion, it just comes off as being a neophyte to the sport (which you contend you are not).

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

"If your competitive nature is solely built upon bettering your handicap and playing against yourself, how do you stay focused when you've already shot your handicap and you still have two holes to play? Those are the rounds that I can lose interest unless there is a true competition on the line..."

That's where I posted the "absolutely not competitive" comment. If you don't constantly strive to get better, and try to shoot your best round every time out, you're just not a competitor in that cut throat competitive sense.

Poker can make you tremble and sweat, doesn't mean it's athletically competitive. And you're completely twisting what I'm saying. To me, competition isn't a boring casual round. Competition is playing my buddy Mike, who's just about dead even with me, and trying to kick his ass. I don't know where you got the "just playing to improve handicap" competition part from...I'm saying that real competition is playing against someone and beating them straight up. Needing to sink an 8 footer for a 74, when the guy your playing just sunk a putt for a 75.

I'll say it again, why don't they give the crappier players on tour a couple strokes? You can't tell me Tiger Woods handicap wouldn't be better than the guys outside the top 100...

And I'll emphasize for like the 10th time, I have nothing against the handicap system, but just don't assume people who don't use it are non-competitive by nature, it very well may be the exact opposite.

I'll admit to missing a lot of this conversation in the middle, but I think I got the gist of it, and if I do ... I tend to agree with Slice on this.  I believe all he meant all along was that HE didn't get any enjoyment out of beating somebody much better than him in a net competition, and likewise, didn't like the idea of "losing" to somebody much worse than him.  I am in the same boat.

This is a perfect example of where I think the "I, personally" phrase that you hate so much is appropriate.  If I were to say "I think that beating somebody who is 10 strokes better than you in a net competition is dumb" I believe that, since it isn't personal, it can come across as my opinion regarding everybody.  As in, "I think you, David in Fl, are dumb for enjoying beating somebody in a net comp."  Whereas, when you add the "personally" part of the sentence, you are simply saying that "I, golfingdad, do not enjoy beating people in net competitions, even though I fully respect your right to do so."  Anyways, it may still be incorrect, but that is how I use it (and why). :)  But I digress ...

I just don't have any desire to compete against people of greatly different skill levels.  That was the main thing that drew me into the Golf Channel Amateur Tour ... you are flighted with others in your same bracket, and from that point you play straight up stroke play.  If I can get my handicap down to the point where I am eligible to qualify for sectional or state amateur tournaments, then I'll start playing those as well.  But net competitions, where I am playing against + cappers and 30 cappers just don't have as much appeal to me.  That doesn't mean I may not try it someday, but it's not at the top of my list.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Pakoh

i keep a handicap that is officially current.  i just dont post it on the internet.

Once i get to scratch i will put it up there so my opinions will be taken more seriously.

Ummm ... actually I will never take your opinions seriously.  Even if you are a +20 handicapper.

Oh ... and I'm getting to scratch before you so there!!!  5SK over Leadbetter all day long!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I'll admit to missing a lot of this conversation in the middle, but I think I got the gist of it, and if I do ... I tend to agree with Slice on this.  I believe all he meant all along was that HE didn't get any enjoyment out of beating somebody much better than him in a net competition, and likewise, didn't like the idea of "losing" to somebody much worse than him.  I am in the same boat.

I am too, but he has written much more than that.  They have taken a sound principle (professional competitions are not handicapped...why?) and ruined it through reductive reasoning and ignoring the nuances of the nature of the handicap system.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

This whole exercise seems like a way to beat your chest and say, "look how competitive I am," while at the same time denouncing the competitive nature of anybody who subscribes to the handicap system.  But I don't think you're accomplishing that at all.  In my opinion, it just comes off as being a neophyte to the sport (which you contend you are not).

Absolutely not. People can be competitive by nature and still use the handicap system. I never said otherwise, what I'm saying is that it's not the same as beating someone straight up. What would you take more seriously...a match between you and someone with your exact handicap, or a match between me with 17 free strokes? One you might technically win based on the handicap, and the other you might straight up win. No ifs, no buts, no nothing. You beat him. Your score was better, period.

I wasn't the one who made the initial competitive generalization of someone following or not following the handicap system.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I'll admit to missing a lot of this conversation in the middle, but I think I got the gist of it, and if I do ... I tend to agree with Slice on this.  I believe all he meant all along was that HE didn't get any enjoyment out of beating somebody much better than him in a net competition, and likewise, didn't like the idea of "losing" to somebody much worse than him.  I am in the same boat.

This. I know enough people who golf and are near my level, that I can always compete. I can understand people who don't, using the handicap system. But I still contend that it isn't the same.

I wouldn't compete in a real tournament unless I got to the point to where it was net scoring, or everyone in the tournament was around the same level.

It should be easy enough to find people within +/- 5 pts to play straight up. If I'm a 20, and my buddy is a 16, I'll play him straight up, and it just makes it that much more challenging for me, and that much greater if I can beat him.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

I wouldn't compete in a real tournament unless I got to the point to where it was net scoring, or everyone in the tournament was around the same level.

I think you made a typo in there ... you probably meant "gross" scoring, right?

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I think you made a typo in there ... you probably meant "gross" scoring, right?

Yeah, if I meant that, it would pretty much contradict my entire side of the debate lol. Good catch.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

I never said otherwise, what I'm saying is that it's not the same as beating someone straight up.

Well, yeah.  That's not exactly saying much.  There are awards in most leagues for net stroke play and gross stroke play championships.  Most folks know this already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

What would you take more seriously...a match between you and someone with your exact handicap, or a match between me with 17 free strokes?

I'm giving you 17 strokes, right (I doubt I'd be giving you that many)?  If I'm being honest, I would take both seriously because of how competitive I am, but technically speaking, I would probably attempt to take the match with you more seriously because I know I would have to play better to beat you if you were having anything resembling a good day.

Oh, you probably never thought of it that way, have you?  You know why...?

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

I wasn't the one who made the initial competitive generalization of someone following or not following the handicap system.

But you did make the comment I quoted, which is what I was responding to.

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

I wouldn't compete in a real tournament unless I got to the point to where it was net scoring, or everyone in the tournament was around the same level.

Thank you, this illustrates my point about the handicapping system allowing more people to compete.  Unfortunately, a ton of people abuse the handicap system, so a lot of the stuff we are discussing is theoretical because I'm discussing an ideal handicap system where everybody's handicaps are legit and representative of their ability.  Because of this abuse, my goal is (and has been for the last year or so) to get to a point where I can compete in gross stroke play events with a chance to win.  It will probably never happen (me getting to that point...some of the events require a 2.7 handicap or something), but unfortunately I can't stop myself from wanting it.