Forum Profile Handicap Indices....

[Slice of Life]

It won't let me quote you for some reason.

Yeah, 17 strokes is a lot...I thought you were a 5 handicap for some reason.

I have thought of it that way...and the way you worded it...the worse player actually has an advantage...which is kind of my point.

Either way, we'll have to agree to disagree, you've made your points, and I've made mine. Fortunately, some people can debate on the internet without it resulting in insults and general garbage.

I'd play with a handicap index for fun, for competition, for money, it just wouldn't be the same kind of competition as a straight up match. That's really all I was trying to say, though it seems I've strayed a little bit.

Carry on...

[bplewis24]

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

"If your competitive nature is solely built upon bettering your handicap and playing against yourself, how do you stay focused when you've already shot your handicap and you still have two holes to play? Those are the rounds that I can lose interest unless there is a true competition on the line..."

That's where I posted the "absolutely not competitive" comment. If you don't constantly strive to get better, and try to shoot your best round every time out, you're just not a competitor in that cut throat competitive sense.

Poker can make you tremble and sweat, doesn't mean it's athletically competitive. And you're completely twisting what I'm saying. To me, competition isn't a boring casual round. Competition is playing my buddy Mike, who's just about dead even with me, and trying to kick his ass. I don't know where you got the "just playing to improve handicap" competition part from...I'm saying that real competition is playing against someone and beating them straight up. Needing to sink an 8 footer for a 74, when the guy your playing just sunk a putt for a 75.

I'll say it again, why don't they give the crappier players on tour a couple strokes? You can't tell me Tiger Woods handicap wouldn't be better than the guys outside the top 100...

And I'll emphasize for like the 10th time, I have nothing against the handicap system, but just don't assume people who don't use it are non-competitive by nature, it very well may be the exact opposite.

I'll admit to missing a lot of this conversation in the middle, but I think I got the gist of it, and if I do ... I tend to agree with Slice on this.  I believe all he meant all along was that HE didn't get any enjoyment out of beating somebody much better than him in a net competition, and likewise, didn't like the idea of "losing" to somebody much worse than him.  I am in the same boat.

This is a perfect example of where I think the "I, personally" phrase that you hate so much is appropriate.  If I were to say "I think that beating somebody who is 10 strokes better than you in a net competition is dumb" I believe that, since it isn't personal, it can come across as my opinion regarding everybody.  As in, "I think you, David in Fl, are dumb for enjoying beating somebody in a net comp."  Whereas, when you add the "personally" part of the sentence, you are simply saying that "I, golfingdad, do not enjoy beating people in net competitions, even though I fully respect your right to do so."  Anyways, it may still be incorrect, but that is how I use it (and why). :)  But I digress ...

I just don't have any desire to compete against people of greatly different skill levels.  That was the main thing that drew me into the Golf Channel Amateur Tour ... you are flighted with others in your same bracket, and from that point you play straight up stroke play.  If I can get my handicap down to the point where I am eligible to qualify for sectional or state amateur tournaments, then I'll start playing those as well.  But net competitions, where I am playing against + cappers and 30 cappers just don't have as much appeal to me.  That doesn't mean I may not try it someday, but it's not at the top of my list.

The USGA handicap system really isn't designed to work across the field in a stroke play tournament.  This is why any properly run competition is flighted for stroke play.  The system works well for match play, 1 on 1 or 2 on 2.  The more players and the greater the diversity of abilities among them, the more likely it is that a competitor will post an exceptional score, even in a field where all handicaps are honestly earned.  The system works best for stroke play when the competitors are of similar ability, and that requires flighting.

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

Quote:

Originally Posted by bplewis24

This whole exercise seems like a way to beat your chest and say, "look how competitive I am," while at the same time denouncing the competitive nature of anybody who subscribes to the handicap system.  But I don't think you're accomplishing that at all.  In my opinion, it just comes off as being a neophyte to the sport (which you contend you are not).

Absolutely not. People can be competitive by nature and still use the handicap system. I never said otherwise, what I'm saying is that it's not the same as beating someone straight up. What would you take more seriously...a match between you and someone with your exact handicap, or a match between me with 17 free strokes? One you might technically win based on the handicap, and the other you might straight up win. No ifs, no buts, no nothing. You beat him. Your score was better, period.

I wasn't the one who made the initial competitive generalization of someone following or not following the handicap system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I'll admit to missing a lot of this conversation in the middle, but I think I got the gist of it, and if I do ... I tend to agree with Slice on this.  I believe all he meant all along was that HE didn't get any enjoyment out of beating somebody much better than him in a net competition, and likewise, didn't like the idea of "losing" to somebody much worse than him.  I am in the same boat.

This. I know enough people who golf and are near my level, that I can always compete. I can understand people who don't, using the handicap system. But I still contend that it isn't the same.

I wouldn't compete in a real tournament unless I got to the point to where it was net scoring, or everyone in the tournament was around the same level.

It should be easy enough to find people within +/- 5 pts to play straight up. If I'm a 20, and my buddy is a 16, I'll play him straight up, and it just makes it that much more challenging for me, and that much greater if I can beat him.

Yeah, but +/- 5 strokes when the median is 10 is a whole other animal.  The guys on the lower end are going to dominate, and contrary to popular opinion, most people simply lack either the native ability go beyond a certain level, or they don't have the luxury of a lifestyle which allows them to maximize their potential.  Also, not everyone lives in a place where there are enough players at the same level to conduct a meaningful gross competition.

I get where you are coming from and that's fine for you.  That doesn't mean that you can bring into question someone's competitive nature just because he feels that the handicap system let's him compete - and yes, win - against players who may be an order of magnitude more skilled than he is.

For me your philosophy would be like trying to break down a brick wall by beating my head against it while ignoring the perfectly good sledge hammer leaning against it.

Anyway, cheers!

[David in FL]

i keep a handicap that is officially current.  i just dont post it on the internet. Once i get to scratch i will put it up there so my opinions will be taken more seriously.

Don't misunderstand. Some of the most knowledgeable individuals on this forum have higher handicaps! WUTiger knows more about clubs and shafts than I EVER will!

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pakoh

i keep a handicap that is officially current.  i just dont post it on the internet.

Once i get to scratch i will put it up there so my opinions will be taken more seriously.

Don't misunderstand. Some of the most knowledgeable individuals on this forum have higher handicaps!

WUTiger knows more about clubs and shafts than I EVER will!

Everybody knows more about that than I ever will.  I'm just not into gear.

[iacas]

FWIW:

http://thesandtrap.com/a/faq#user_handicap_index

Do I have to fill out the handicap index?

Please do. Golf is a game of integrity and honesty, and oftentimes advice is customized for the person who is asking the question or participating in the conversation. If you do not have an official handicap index, approximate one. The only acceptable answers for your handicap index are a valid number or "Pro." Members caught lying about their handicap index will be viewed as dishonest scoundrels and will be dealt with in an appropriate manner.

We added that awhile back. Please take note of the strong recommendation to fill out your handicap index.

I don't care what it is - be proud of it. It might disgust you, or delight you, or something, but it's a teeny bit of who you are as a golfer.

[trackster]

Originally Posted by iacas

FWIW:

http://thesandtrap.com/a/faq#user_handicap_index

We added that awhile back. Please take note of the strong recommendation to fill out your handicap index.

I don't care what it is - be proud of it. It might disgust you, or delight you, or something, but it's a teeny bit of who you are as a golfer.

Where is your handicap then? Pro doesn't really tell me much.

[Slice of Life]

Where is your handicap then? Pro doesn't really tell me much.

It tells you he's a pro, and that it's + something.

[pepsiplusconker]

I have played 2-3 rounds per week for the past 8 - 9 weeks or so, my standard score is dropping alot, and anything over 83 isn't great for me.

Over the past few rounds I've noticed my yardages are increasing alot, I'm hitting 8 irons when I was hitting 6 2 month ago, anyone ever noticed this with themselves?

[trackster]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

It tells you he's a pro, and that it's + something.

Still, it's still a number.  It would be like if you put your hcp as amateur.

[ghalfaire]

OK I admit mine isn't current or precisely correct.  But I am somewhat lazy about updating it on this forum and as long as it is +/- a stroke or so what difference does it make?  Especially when most posters don't show any indication of their handicap.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by trackster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

It tells you he's a pro, and that it's + something.

Still, it's still a number.  It would be like if you put your hcp as amateur.

Pros don't carry handicaps, so what is he supposed to put in there?  Pro is pro.  Erik isn't a Touring pro, so he must be a teaching pro.  Either way he's a lot better than you and I are and knows more about the swing in general than I ever will.

[Golfingdad]

Still, it's still a number.  It would be like if you put your hcp as amateur.

I don't believe it is, no. Handicaps are for us amateurs to compete against each other so there aren't handicaps for pros. If you need a number then ...... "mark it zero, dude." [URL]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8BdT5mFAk-Y[/URL]

[iacas]

Originally Posted by trackster

Uh did you not see my posts about running?  That is an individual sport.  We don't handicap races by distances for slower people.  And you could devise a handicap for team sports.  It's called a spread.  But doing that would be completely idiotic, therefore its not done.

The spread is for betting (and it's not, as many seem to think, to try to make the bets come out 50/50). It's not for handicapping the teams.

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

I play competitively, against 5 people. Pat, Pat, Mike, Maxx, and Markus. 5 friends that golf about the same level as myself. If they beat me, it bother me...a lot.

And when you get better than them but you still want to "compete" with them, what are you going to do? You can do what the system is built to do: figure out how many strokes you give them.

I agree - you don't need handicaps when you're all about the same level. But duh, that's exactly what handicaps solve - it allows people to "compete" when they aren't at the same level.

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

If you beat me, it wouldn't bother me...because that isn't a real competition from the beginning, I know I have no shot of winning. I'll try my best, but toss your free strokes in the trash unless we're gambling.

Sorry, I like you, but the bold is just flat out . Gambling is competing.

You seem to have an unusual way of defining "competitive." I like to compete, and oftentimes, that means giving strokes to people. It makes it more interesting for BOTH competitors - and you still get to keep your own score to "compete against yourself."

If you have a ten-foot putt to beat me on the last hole because I gave you a shot a hole, you're telling me that you're not going to feel the pressure and then an emotion of some kind depending on whether you sink it or three-putt? Of course you will. And no, you wouldn't have actually "beat" me - 90 to 72 or something is how the scores might shake out - but so what?

Handicapping allows you to feel the pressure, to compete, in matches that would otherwise be a foregone conclusion. It's no different than playing my daughter in table tennis left-handed when I normally play righty.

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

You wanna play against me and give me 15 strokes just to make it interesting? That's cool. We'll put some money on it because at that point, I'm trying to be better than my normal self...not trying to be better than you.

Yet, in order to beat the guy giving you strokes, you'll have to be better than your normal self more so than he is better than his normal self. Or less "worse" than your normal self than he is worse than his normal self.

Again, I'm glad you have a regular group of guys that are about your level. But you're going to just not compete with anyone anymore when you get better than them?

[TomK82]

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

Is it strange that I have better scores on courses with higher ratings/slope and more distance length?

No this happens to me too I'm thinking it has to do with playing conditions.  Some courses that are bigger and "tougher" are more playable because they are taken care of better. I putt better on fast or "bikini waxed" greens so I normally play better on the bigger courses.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by iacas

=Yet, in order to beat the guy giving you strokes, you'll have to be better than your normal self more so than he is better than his normal self. Or less "worse" than your normal self than he is worse than his normal self.

That's almost exactly what I said. Almost word for word if you go back and read it. I also said I understand the handicap system and would play with it, but I wouldn't look at it as the same type of competition as straight up beating someone.

[tristanhilton85]

Back on topic...

My handicap is both current and official.

I'll admit that I'll change it right away when it's trending down and may forget for a while when it goes up...

[Motown88]

To followup on my original response to this thread...My handicap is officially updated on my profile as of today, and is recent to whenever my handicap last officially updated.

On a side note, I never realized how much nicer this forum was when you're on a computer that actually was built after the year 2000!  To bad where I work doesn't have the money to upgrade all their computers.