Skins - do you always play off the low handicap in your foursome?

[meenman]

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

You are taking this the wrong way. I don't feel like it's cheating, however it should be used to match people of similar skill more than anything, not matching a 5 hc against a 25 hc. I don't get into tournaments because I don't want to do that until/unless I get to a point where handicaps aren't really an issue. Even then most around here have you play "qualifying" rounds to establish the handicap that will place you in the correct field of players for your level. This is my personal choice and I've no problem with people doing what you do, just stating my opinion not what I expect everyone to think or do.

If there are enough participants, everything is flighted (except skins). The senior tee guys are always their own group for tourneys and skins.

Even with flighting, there is going to be a discrepancy between handicaps somewhere - if there are a ton of low handicappers, a 12 may be in the same flight as a 30,

Pretty much everyone agrees that the handicap system isnt perfect - but there has yet to be a better way discovered.

What I am saying is, do not be too proud to win with handicaps - it is what allows you to play with someone much better on a fairly level playing field.

[Spitfisher]

We play it off the lowest handicap, we also make it known of peoples handicap. One guy may have 15 handicap the lowest maybe a 3.There is no way that the 15 handicap gets 12 strokes. In other words we will play off the low handicapper but maybe at 75% of the others.  the 3 HCP gets no strokes and the 15 gets 11 strokes with none on a par 3. For lack of an explanation I have met more 12 and 15 handicappers that really should be a 10 and are fully capable of a 9 or 10.

[Jeremie Boop]

Originally Posted by meenman

If there are enough participants, everything is flighted (except skins). The senior tee guys are always their own group for tourneys and skins.

Even with flighting, there is going to be a discrepancy between handicaps somewhere - if there are a ton of low handicappers, a 12 may be in the same flight as a 30,

Pretty much everyone agrees that the handicap system isnt perfect - but there has yet to be a better way discovered.

What I am saying is, do not be too proud to win with handicaps - it is what allows you to play with someone much better on a fairly level playing field.

It's not so much about pride, but I know with the higher handicap I'm very inconsistent. Maybe there are people who are consistent 25 hc but I'm anywhere from 105 to 93 from day to day. To me that's way too much variance to try playing even a hc event. If I were consistent, no matter what the hc was, I wouldn't have a problem accepting a win based on hc because I'd know that I played to the best of my ability.

[Spitfisher]

Oh and no net skins unless they are in their own net skins pool

[whatwoodtigerdo]

Wait so people are saying they would rather give a stroke on the easier holes, say a 330 yard par four with no danger than give a stroke on the hardest hole on the course. Color me baffled.

[meenman]

Originally Posted by whatwoodtigerdo

Wait so people are saying they would rather give a stroke on the easier holes, say a 330 yard par four with no danger than give a stroke on the hardest hole on the course. Color me baffled.

There is a misconception that the #1 handicap hole is the hardest hole. (if the course is rated the right way) It is the hole where bogey golfer most needs the stroke over a scratch.

If there was a 240 yard par 3 with an island green, it may not be the #1 handicap because even a low digit HC could struggle with it.

[whatwoodtigerdo]

There is a misconception that the #1 handicap hole is the hardest hole. (if the course is rated the right way) It is the hole where bogey golfer most needs the stroke over a scratch. If there was a 240 yard par 3 with an island green, it may not be the #1 handicap because even a low digit HC could struggle with it.

Fair enough. And I did nott know that so thanks for the heads up on that. However in a scenario like this we would be talking giving a stroke on handicaps 16,17 and 18 versus 1, 2 and 3 and I am sure that gap is pretty wide. My group also never gives stokes on par 3s.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by whatwoodtigerdo

Wait so people are saying they would rather give a stroke on the easier holes, say a 330 yard par four with no danger than give a stroke on the hardest hole on the course. Color me baffled.

I wouldn't play net skins, but I am saying that it makes logical sense that full handicaps are given, because that is how the hole handicaps are designed.  330 yard par 4's with no danger are the type of holes that better players can make up a lot of their strokes.  A 220 yard par 3 is more likely to be bogeyed by all, which is why you'd see it ranked as a "harder" hole more often than not.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by meenman

There is a misconception that the #1 handicap hole is the hardest hole. (if the course is rated the right way) It is the hole where bogey golfer most needs the stroke over a scratch.

If there was a 240 yard par 3 with an island green, it may not be the #1 handicap because even a low digit HC could struggle with it.

I think I just said the exact same thing as you a little late ...

However, one of us got it backwards. ;)  If you use full handicaps the holes rated harder are the ones where the bogey golfer is going to get less help, right?   The 240 yard par 3 is going to be the 1 or 2 or something low precisely because even the low single digit would struggle, right?

Or am I the one that got it backwards? ;)

[meenman]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I think I just said the exact same thing as you a little late ...

However, one of us got it backwards. ;)  If you use full handicaps the holes rated harder are the ones where the bogey golfer is going to get less help, right?   The 240 yard par 3 is going to be the 1 or 2 or something low precisely because even the low single digit would struggle, right?

Or am I the one that got it backwards? ;)

The problem is, the 240 yard par 3 should not be a 1 or 2 handicap in theory, but will be generally because too many clubs designate those holes based on average score vs taking handicaps into account.

I know our last rating one GM factored in handicaps when giving the holes ratings (scratch golfers vs bogey golfers), then when the members started crying because the rankings had changed from what they had been the last 10 years, it was reversed by the next GM.

edit: OK just looked it up - actually both of us can be right, depending on how a club decides to rate it's holes (the USGA allows the clubs to decide how they want to do it)

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by chriskzoo

I am only talking about when you play a round and keep skins within your foursome.  I contend (and rightly so) that you must always play off the low man because it ensures that the holes where higher handicappers get their strokes are the hardest on the course.  I have two guys I regularly golf with, one a low handicapper (3 index) and one a higher handicapper (17 index) who always battle me on this.

The low handicapper contends he wants his 4 strokes because it gives him those 4 holes where he can make par, net birdie and not have to make a natural birdie to win a skin.  On the other hand, I have the high handicapper who usually comes in around a 19 course handicap who wants all his strokes because it gives him a stroke on every hole and, as higher handicappers typically do, he's a high handicapper, not because he bogey's every hole, but because he'll par 6 holes (6 net birdies) and mix in some doubles and a triple in any given round.

How do you play with your friends?  I know that playing off the low handicap is the right thing to do, but these guys always want to argue it.

You are correct.  The system is designed to work when you wheel off the low cap.  This is how it's done for a properly set up match, and skins is essentially a match.  Low handicap plays scratch, and everyone else gets the difference between their handicap and his.  Use the course handicap, not the handicap index to do the adjustment.  Most partner match play tournament use 80% of course handicap for all players, and individual singles often use 80 or 90%, as this is a bit more equitable for the lower handicap player.

Basically means that you take your course handicap for the tees you are playing, then multiply it by .8 and this is the handicap you use for the competition.  If your course handicap is 12, then 12 x .8 = 9.6 rounds up to 10.  You buddy's 4 would be 4 x .8 = 3.2 which rounds to 3.  The differential is 7, so he gives you only 7 strokes instead of the 8 that you'd get at 100%. He would play scratch and you would play off 7.  This helps to account for the extra variability that a high handicapper has in his game.  Maybe if yo explain it to him this way, he'll go for it.  He should not be getting any strokes against players with a higher handicap.

Originally Posted by MEfree

Skins isn't a great handicap game, so you will have issues either way.  If you are playing carry-overs, then I doubt it is fair to play full handicap...as JB implied, skins is a better game when the handicaps are close and ignored.

But handicap aren't always close and in that case they can't be ignored.  And I've never seen where skins don't work with handicaps, we did it all the time.  As I said above, it's just match play with money on each hole.  If it carries, it carries, so what?  If your handicaps are honest, that shouldn't make any difference.

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

Quote:

Originally Posted by meenman

You can opt in or out of skins in tourneys - but you cant only play gross or net - you get forced into both.

No one gets cheated in net skins - I almost understand the bitching when someone gets 2 strokes on a par 3 - but these people earned their handicaps.

If you feel using your strokes is cheating, dont carry a handicap, declare yourself a pro and play off scratch.

You are taking this the wrong way. I don't feel like it's cheating, however it should be used to match people of similar skill more than anything, not matching a 5 hc against a 25 hc. I don't get into tournaments because I don't want to do that until/unless I get to a point where handicaps aren't really an issue. Even then most around here have you play "qualifying" rounds to establish the handicap that will place you in the correct field of players for your level. This is my personal choice and I've no problem with people doing what you do, just stating my opinion not what I expect everyone to think or do.

I might have thought like you when I was first starting out, but I can tell you from experience now that there is no guarantee that you will achieve such success at the game.  If that happens will you just quit?  I know a lot of avid golfers who have never been lower than a 12 or 13, yet they still want the chance like I do to play competitively against a random group.  That makes handicaps a necessity unless you are just masochistic.  I've played and won a match when I was the low cap at 10, playing scratch and still giving 20 strokes, and I've lost a match giving about that much.  The system works when it's used properly.

[clearwaterms]

here is an alternative.

Why not give the players votes.  Everybody plays off the differential of the lowest handicap.

player A is a 6

player B is a 9

player C is a 14

player D is a 19

The differential would be a % of the difference between the 2 (say 90% rounded down)  This gives a slight advantage to the best golfer since he is playing his net score, and the other players get a reduced stroke count.  To make in interesting, let the players decide which holes they want to use the strokes on BEFORE the round starts, and they can not announce which holes they took the stroke(s) on until after that hole is finished.

net on this would be

A=0

B=2

C=7

D=11

It introduces a bit of strategy into the pre-round as you stare at the score card, and makes risk reward shots different.  On a par 5 that you elected to get a stroke, you have the opportunity to get home in 2 which will virtually guarantee your victory on that hole, or you could lay up, and risk that nobody else took a stroke on that hole and play for the par.  On that short par 3 that you always have a ton of confidence, you could take a stroke and paring it would give you a birdie, and might guarantee you at least one skin, but you have to basically forfeit the long par 5 that you struggle to make par on.

To appease the higher handicap people, you could also play no pushes, all unclaimed holes go to the best net score based on course handicap for the day.  This makes everybody play the entire course for what should be the largest prize of them all.

[Jeremie Boop]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I might have thought like you when I was first starting out, but I can tell you from experience now that there is no guarantee that you will achieve such success at the game.  If that happens will you just quit?  I know a lot of avid golfers who have never been lower than a 12 or 13, yet they still want the chance like I do to play competitively against a random group.  That makes handicaps a necessity unless you are just masochistic.  I've played and won a match when I was the low cap at 10, playing scratch and still giving 20 strokes, and I've lost a match giving about that much.  The system works when it's used properly.

I won't quit playing golf but if I'm still as inconsistent as I am now I won't play competitively. I have no problem with others utilizing the system and playing, it's a personal preference, like I said.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I might have thought like you when I was first starting out, but I can tell you from experience now that there is no guarantee that you will achieve such success at the game.  If that happens will you just quit?  I know a lot of avid golfers who have never been lower than a 12 or 13, yet they still want the chance like I do to play competitively against a random group.  That makes handicaps a necessity unless you are just masochistic.  I've played and won a match when I was the low cap at 10, playing scratch and still giving 20 strokes, and I've lost a match giving about that much.  The system works when it's used properly.

I won't quit playing golf but if I'm still as inconsistent as I am now I won't play competitively. I have no problem with others utilizing the system and playing, it's a personal preference, like I said.

Spoken like one who has never really competed.  Once it gets in your blood, playing without competition just isn't the same.  It's still golf and it's still fun, but it just doesn't have the same zip.  Believe me, when you are playing in a tournament, you aren't thinking about handicap strokes, you are just thinking about playing the best you can and beating the competition, regardless of what that competition may be.  As others have mentioned, a good tournament club flights by handicap, so you are only competing against others in your range straight up.  As your handicap improves, you just move up to better flights.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I've gone both ways on my opinion of this, but currently I'm with you.  Now that I (think I) understand the hole handicaps better, your way makes more logical sense.  The #1 handicap hole isn't the "hardest" hole on the course, per se, but rather the hole that the higher handicap needs LESS help on.  It's hard(er) for everybody.  The 18 handicap hole, OTOH, is a hole where the discrepancy between the better golfers and worse golfers is more magnified, therefore, the higher handicaps need more "help" there.  So, I think I would side with those who, like you, just go off full handicaps.

Those are precisely backwards.

Scoring spread is highest on the #1 handicap hole, and closest on the #18 handicap hole.

Par threes tend to be high numbered handicap holes because even PGA Tour pros average 3.3 or so on them. They bogey them just like an 18 handicapper will bogey them.

But the 18 handicapper will get 6s and 7s on par fives, while scratch golfers will look to make 4.8 or so. These tend to be the low numbered handicap holes.

---

If you're going to play net skins (I don't advise it), and you have someone who is a 4, you just subtract 4 from everyone's handicap and then play the normal distribution: so a 17 would get strokes on #1-13 handicap holes.

If you play net skins, I advise doing the above AND cutting the remaining handicaps in half (you can round up, so 13 becomes 6.5 -> 7 strokes). It's fair - skins is a VERY forgiving game. Or at least require a net par as the follow-up to "lock in" the skin or something.

[Golfingdad]

Or am I the one that got it backwards? ;)

[quote name="iacas" url="/t/68939/skins-do-you-always-play-off-the-low-handicap-in-your-foursome/30#post_877440"] Those are precisely backwards. [/quote]So I was correct then? ;)

[rustyredcab]

Originally Posted by iacas

Those are precisely backwards.

Scoring spread is highest on the #1 handicap hole, and closest on the #18 handicap hole....

Let's all start helping people understand that it is the differential between scratch and bogie golfers that determines the handicap of a hole -- not hard to easy. As Iacas said, it is the spread. Our course was re-configured and now the #1 handicap hole is a shortish par 4 with a split fairway. No matter which way you go, you need to eventually hit a good shot over water. For better players, you carry the water off the tee and than have a short iron into the green. I'm guessing a scratch play would par or birdie this hole 9 out of 10 times. An 18 handicap could par the hole but is just as likely to card a 7 or worse. Great use of #1 handicap. High capper can get a birdie or par but they will earn it. For the low cap guy to win the hole, he is going to need a birdie most days.

Back to topic, always play off low cap otherwise the "help" comes on holes with less spread.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You are correct.  The system is designed to work when you wheel off the low cap.  This is how it's done for a properly set up match, and skins is essentially a match.  Low handicap plays scratch, and everyone else gets the difference between their handicap and his.  Use the course handicap, not the handicap index to do the adjustment.  Most partner match play tournament use 80% of course handicap for all players, and individual singles often use 80 or 90%, as this is a bit more equitable for the lower handicap player.

Basically means that you take your course handicap for the tees you are playing, then multiply it by .8 and this is the handicap you use for the competition.  If your course handicap is 12, then 12 x .8 = 9.6 rounds up to 10.  You buddy's 4 would be 4 x .8 = 3.2 which rounds to 3.  The differential is 7, so he gives you only 7 strokes instead of the 8 that you'd get at 100%. He would play scratch and you would play off 7.  This helps to account for the extra variability that a high handicapper has in his game.  Maybe if yo explain it to him this way, he'll go for it.  He should not be getting any strokes against players with a higher handicap.

But handicap aren't always close and in that case they can't be ignored.  And I've never seen where skins don't work with handicaps, we did it all the time.  As I said above, it's just match play with money on each hole.  If it carries, it carries, so what?  If your handicaps are honest, that shouldn't make any difference.

I might have thought like you when I was first starting out, but I can tell you from experience now that there is no guarantee that you will achieve such success at the game.  If that happens will you just quit?  I know a lot of avid golfers who have never been lower than a 12 or 13, yet they still want the chance like I do to play competitively against a random group.  That makes handicaps a necessity unless you are just masochistic.  I've played and won a match when I was the low cap at 10, playing scratch and still giving 20 strokes, and I've lost a match giving about that much.  The system works when it's used properly.

It depends on how many guys are playing skins, but the bigger the group/field, the more I think you need to adjust the handicaps if you are playing two tie, all tie with carry-overs.  The logic is similar to why you don't play full handicaps with partner (or four man) best ball- formats like best ball, skins, and scramble favor inconsistent players more than stroke play does.

Basically, higher handicap golfers tend to be more INCONSISTENT than lower handicap golfers.  If you compare an 18 vs 0, my guess is the 18 will:

make more triple+ than the scratch will make double+

make more birdies than the scratch will make eagles

If you threw our their 4 highest holes, I think most high handicappers scores would improve by a greater % than most low handicappers scores.  This is why formats that favor inconsistency should not be played at full handicaps.

As an example, I believe that my Men's League might have played full handicap for 4 person best ball last week- My group took low gross with a 65 while the low net had two groups tie with 52.  If you put 4 scratch golfers together, I think it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that they would ever shot a 52 gross.

If you had a field of a hundred 18 to 36 cappers playing skins at full handicap, my guess is that it would take a net eagle to win a skin as it is quite likely that at least several guys will make net birdies (with a gross par or bogey) on every hole.  If you have enough guys getting 2 shots on holes, it wouldn't be surprising to see a net eagle tie a hole.  Conversely, if you had a field of a 100 scratch golfers, there would be a better chance of a birdie taking a skin.  Of course, if two buddies are playing skins against each other, then full handicap makes sense, but the more you have playing, the more the handicaps need to be scaled.